Let’s quickly go through the basics and then hit what appears to be a nerve for many students. I know that there are many interesting courses in marketing, english and the sciences (biology, physics, etc) and while the skills learned in those courses might very well be applicable to banking, they are not relevant to banking as far as bankers are concerned. When I ask for relevant coursework, I am looking for accounting and finance courses first and foremost. Next on the totem pole, I am searching for math courses (including stats), since those will at least show me that you are quantitatively inclined and economics courses. Finally, I am looking for an occasional management course – something displaying some form of decision making, strategy or leadership as a means of potentially expressing your ability to see the big picture, analyze situations, etc. Outside of these types of courses, there is very little extra that I am terribly interested in seeing.

Moving past that, we get into the slightly more painful aspect of this section – the other side of what not to include. While, for example, many students like to include micro and macro economics courses on their resumes, you should not. Intro courses, excluding, perhaps an intro accounting or finance course (if you are not a finance or account major) should not be included on your resume. Showcase more advanced relevant coursework to separate yourself, rather than taking up space with courses every econ/business major has to take.

Moving past coursework, there are a few general resume faux pas that I recommend staying away from and/or correcting before considering adding them to your resume:

Mixing dates: Although there is nothing technically wrong with writing “Summer 2008” for one experience, “Jan. 2009 to May 2009” for another and “August 2009 to December 2009” for a third, simply put, it looks sloppy. Keep your dates consistent – if you want to use “Summer 2008,” then cite each experience as “Season Year.” If you want to write out the dates (which is my preference), then simply write them out – “August 2009 to December 2009” for example. At the risk of being a bit nit-picky, date abbreviations is my least favorite simply because months like May, June and July are rarely abbreviated, while December becomes Dec. – again, it’s just a matter of consistency.

GPAs: There are two quick issues that I have encountered with student GPAs (here’s a few more pointers on reporting your GPAs) that should be avoided. First, unless you are from another country where schools do not typically grade on a 4.0 scale, you do NOT need to include the “/4.0” after your GPA – it will be implied.

Second, and more importantly, there are two types of GPAs that are acceptable on a resume – the cumulative GPA (of course) and the major/concentration GPA. Breaking GPAs down to a more granular level than major GPA – whether that means citing specific courses, excluding certain courses (for whatever silly reason) and making up your own GPA – such as major GPA (plus courses X, Y and Z) – should not be done. The more specific you break down your GPA, the more red flags you will raise in terms of why you needed to break down your GPA in this manner and just how bad is your cumulative GPA. In short, if neither your major nor your cumulative GPAs (and you can list one or the other, not necessarily both) are at least above a 3.0, then don’t even bother listing your GPA at all – just leave it off.

Work Experience Positions: While there are certainly a number of position titles in the professional world, you don’t want to make up a title that is completely off the wall or deceiving. When it comes to listing your function/title for your position on your resume, it is usually best to go with the most basic, albeit descriptive title. For example, if you work in investment banking for a M&A boutique as an intern, then simply put “Investment Banking Intern” or “Investment Banking Intern – Mergers and Acquisitions” – you don’t need to call yourself an analyst (even if they refer to you in that manner), nor do you need to break it down further into industries you work on. Your title should briefly cite your position or your position and function; that’s it. Remember, even if your group refers to you as an analyst, you should still include the word intern in your position. Including the word intern will not hurt you and it will definitely clear up any small confusion that could occur.

Stay tuned for future posts on a Day in the Life, interviews with past bankers and much more! Comments go below and emails can be sent Here.

A 710 will definitely not keep you out of those schools by any means. That said, if you think you had a bad test day, or think with just a bit more studying you could hit a 750 or better, then why not do it. If, however, you really put your hard work in, cranked away and don’t even want to think GMAT anymore, don’t bother taking it again to maybe get a 720…or maybe get a 690. A 710 is a solid score and with H/S/W and any other top 5-10 school, there is a lot more to an admission acceptance than your GMAT.

In short, check the GMAT box off the B school list and move on to strengthening the rest of your candidacy.

Are 90-100-hour weeks for analysts for real? Why can’t they just hire 2 people to work 40-50 hours per week instead? Also, do hours decrease as you move up the IB chain?

Yes, the hours really do approach 90-100+ at times – depending on deal flow, staffing needs and fire drills (sudden deal items that NEED to be done immediately). That said, 90-100+ hour weeks are not the norm, although just a few weeks like that in a row can feel like the norm and burn you out.

To the 2nd part of your question, no, you can’t just hire 2 people to do the job of 1 unless you hire 2 people to do the job of every 1 person and essentially double up on everyone and make them think exactly alike – essentially clone them…etc. In short, there is a chain of work – senior banker, to secondary senior banker (VP, senior associate, depending on group), to associate to analyst (give or take 1 banker in the chain depending on the deal plus other deal teams as needed). Therefore, the analyst might work 80 hours 1 week because he/she is on 2 live deals and changes to models, pitches and info memos filter down the chain and then back up the chain. Then new changes come down the chain and back up the chain – repeat and repeat.

As you go up the chain in IB, the hours do decrease – on average. That said, senior bankers are caught hanging around at midnight sometimes when they need to be – it’s just not as common. If on an average night an analyst gets out at around 11pmish, the associate is out by about 9-10pm and the senior bankers between 6 and 8pm although many times the senior bankers are in an hour or so before the junior guys file in. Additionally, while senior bankers have less hours in general, they also have far more travel time (at least coverage/industry bankers) and travel time is neither glamorous nor exciting (traveling is only a lot of fun when you aren’t required by work to do it and have more than a 5+-hour meeting to look forward to).

<>I am a sophomore at a nontarget and I just landed a BB PWM internship. Are PWM internships looked upon favorably by investment banks? Am I wasting my time, or is this a good opportunity for a sophomore to have in order to break into IB?

As a sophomore especially, you are definitely NOT wasting your time as you are early in your career and will have a strong brand name on your resume. That said, PWM is definitely not that desirable to IB, but a good brand name coupled with the early experience definitely makes it worth while (assuming you don’t have any stronger options available – See Other SA Opps). I would go for it, make the most of it, and then make a strong push for junior SA positions next year through networking, etc.

I have been pretty set on going to Harvard this fall, but I just got off the Wharton waitlist. I”m pretty set on a career in finance/banking, but then again, it’s Harvard and it would be hard to turn it down. So what do you think? Are those two pretty equal for U Grad?

First, let me say that in terms of U Grad, there is VERY little difference between H and W – they are both TOP notch schools, fully recruited by everyone and will open big doors going forward. That said, H has the legacy and brand slightly in its favor, but that IS IT. In other words, H is H, without questions and that’s a big deal, but in your case and given your career goals, I would DEFINITELY say that you should go with W.

For starters, you are in at W and haven’t heard anything from H – the difference is clearly not worth the potential for having zero top tier options. Second, both are top recruited schools with strong brand recognition. Finally and most importantly, in terms of IB/Finance recruiting, W, yes that’s right, W, is actually a stronger target than H. W is definitely the stronger brand in finance and even if you got into H, it would difficult to justify with 100% certainty that you should pick it over W. Bottom line, if I were you, I would pick W and not even look back. If you are interested in B school down the line, then you can shoot for H – for U Grad, for your career goals, and for certainty over uncertainty, go with W.

My contact sent me an email and signed with just his first name after I initially addressed him by the formal Mr. XXX. Should I have continued to use Mr. Smith or is first name now acceptable? Also, when is it appropriate to write an email using first name only; is age a factor?

In your case you are definitely fine with going with the first name. Since he signed with his first name, you essentially “have permission” to address him by his first name going forward without fear of insulting him.

To the second part of your question, it is usually fine to address someone by his/her first name when they are on an equivalent level to you – whether work wise, school-wise, etc. Beyond that, if the person signs or introduces himself/herself using the first name, referring to him/her by his/her first name is acceptable. Additionally, if you’ve had physical or telephone conversations where first names were used, first names are now acceptable for email as well.

Again, it’s not so much age as much as it is about status and situation – generally senior positions would lend themselves to the more formal intro if you are in a junior position regardless of age, whereas junior position interaction would usually go well with casual addressing (first name) regardless of age.

I am currently a high school senior. Do you suggest attempting any sort of networking during my first year of U grad? If I do attempt networking, how should I approach it (given my age and a limited finance background)?

It’s not the depth of your finance background that is an issue, it is your age. Since you are still very early in your college career (or will be), you don’t want to push too hard in terms of networking simply because there isn’t anything that you really need just yet in terms of help with opportunities etc – this is more of an informational push and a means of slowly building a network. That said, there is still absolutely nothing wrong with networking if done tactfully. At this stage your best approach should be in joining IB-related school clubs, attending IB-related school events, etc and working towards meeting professionals in a social manner and asking some broad questions about preparing yourself at this stage.

From there, it will be fine to send emails every few months to keep in touch. I wouldn’t mass email alumni at this point since you don’t have anything to gain – that can be saved for the latter half of your sophomore year (or summer) as you begin to prepare for junior SA recruiting.

Stay tuned for upcoming articles on a typical day in banking, more resume tips and much more!

Although along the same line as many of the GPA questions, I encounter a large amount of questions related to, most commonly, these 3 standardized tests: the SAT, GMAT and LSAT. For those of you that don’t know, the GMAT is the test individuals take when preparing for business school, the LSAT for law school and the SAT, of course, is for undergrads (nothing terribly earth-shattering here, I know). Definitions aside, the most common questions regarding these exams involve their impact on bankers, which scores are high enough and not, and when you should list one, the other, both, all 3, etc.

Let me start off with the LSAT and let me be the first to shout that achieving a 170+ on the LSAT is impressive and well-done without question. Now, let me also be the first to tell you that bankers don’t give a damn. Yes a 170+ is great, but the LSAT, for those of you that forgot what you read a few sentences ago, is for law school, not business school and certainly not undergrad (the 2 places where IB recruits). While the score clearly shows that at the very least you are a good test taker, it also shows that you have an interest in law school, or at least are not certain if you want to go to law school (which also probably would lead them to believe that you don’t know if IB is for you). As a general rule of thumb, I would not include the LSAT in your resume, since it will open up way too many questions without any benefit.

Now let’s move on to the GMAT. With the GMAT, there are two sides to the coin or two situations to consider before we even consider schools. The first situation involves a current business school student (or alum). In this case, the GMAT is perfectly acceptable to put on your resume (provided you’ve got a score good enough to include) and I would definitely advise you to do so.

The second situation is a little stickier in that you have not yet attended business school. In this scenario, you might have taken the GMAT as a backup, with the intention of going next year, or with the intention of going in 3 years. In any case, if that GMAT is on your resume, you will often be asked “well are you planning to go to business school soon” during your interview. Remember, if you are applying for jobs after (or during) your initial post-U grad position, many employers will be looking to bring you on for longer than a year or 2 – therefore, you probably don’t want to outright say that you are gunning for business school, even if you are. You will need to develop an answer that puts their fears to rest (even if valid) if you want to have a good shot at landing the position (check this and this out for more help with nailing the interview. That said, if your SAT score is not that great, and/or if your GMAT score is really pretty strong (and you’ve crafted a good answer to the aforementioned question), then you should really consider including your GMAT on your resume in the education section as it will definitely help you to check off that ever-looming standardized test question (SAT or GMAT), especially if you are a few years out of U grad and with a less than top notch SAT score.

Now that you should be able to figure out when to include your GMAT, you need to know whether you should include it. Although you can get into business school with a wide range of scores, and a 650 is a very respectable score, generally speaking, I would recommend that you only include your score if it is a 700 or better (for investment banking – for other fields, I think a 660-670+ would definitely suffice). Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen strong resumes with a 680 GMAT listed, but as a general rule of thumb, the 700 is that magic check-the-box number, where, if a recruiter sees that, they won’t question it – it’s a really good score, check, and move on. As a side note, if you’ve got a 690 GMAT and a weaker SAT, it might not be a bad idea to include the GMAT score since the 690 is more current and still a very good score.

Next, when listing your GMAT score, don’t break out any additional details outside of your AWA IF, and only if, it is a 5.5 or better (personally I don’t think anything lower than a 6 should be listed, but I’ve seen enough 5.5s to know that it isn’t a terribly big deal). By breaking out details I am referring to your individual verbal and math scores. Listing a 720 is good enough – you do not have to go into your 49 in math, since you will be only calling attention to your verbal score that is a bit weaker – instead, just give me the great combined score and if the interviewer has additional questions, let him/her ask them.

Finally, we come to the ever-popular SAT. Where including the GMAT can result in questions, NOT including the SAT can also bring up questions. For students in business school, outside of U grad for several years, or who have taken the GMAT (outside of U grad, that is) and have a strong GMAT score, not including the SAT is not a big deal – occasionally a recruiter will want to know, but it is so long ago that it isn’t going to be a big deal breaker either way, even if you don’t remember. For undergrads, however, the SAT is often a recruiter’s easiest way to weed out several candidates in one push. While many recruiters won’t care about your SAT, many will and not including will raise a flag of “well how bad did he/she do” even if you did not do badly at all and just forgot to include it. That said, including a score that isn’t great for a recruiter that isn’t really looking might provide him/her an easy way to drop a quick ding. Therefore, knowing whether to include your resume is important.

As a general of thumb, scores less than a combined 2100 (1400 or so for those that took the old exam) do not need to be highlighted/included in your resume. In general, these scores are considered the “start” of the highly competitive scores and at this point and above, it would be silly to not include your score, since it will be seen as a positive or at worst a neutral (rather than no score, which could, on occasion, be seen as an implication of a negative). Scores below this threshold do not need to be included in your resume, although borderline scores (mid 2000s or high 1300s) can be included provided that the weaker aspect is not in your math section. Once you dip into the low 2000s (1300s) and below, you are no longer really helping your candidacy much by including your score and could be hurting it. What I mean by hurting it is not that your score is necessarily bad, but it isn’t great either and by giving it up outside of the interview or when they specifically request it, you are giving away non-beneficial information without providing them with as much beneficial information (interview skills, etc) first. In short, a 2100+ can and should be kept on, and anything lower than the low 2000s can be cut from your resume to keep the focus on your, hopefully, strong GPA.

Stay tuned for my next post on what exactly constitutes relevant coursework and titling your summer analyst and FT banking positions, a fresh product on the way and much more! Comments go below and emails can be sent Here!

It’s Only A Summer, Right?

Starting with the second, better scenario first, if you get stuck in a bad group (whether for the future placement, deal flow, hours/balance, team, etc) as a SA you are definitely not screwed here. The big objective in this case is to do your job, do it well and essentially tough it out with a smile on your face for those 2-3 months. Remember the SA position is exactly that, a position for the summer and as long as you stay in everyone’s good graces, you should have a decent enough experience and be able to leverage that into an opportunity with a better group – whether with your SA employer or a different IB.

As a SA, especially if you want to stay at the firm you are currently at, you will need to work hard and land that FT offer. Landing the offer, however, does not usually mean that you HAVE TO stay with your current group – as with most BBs, landing the offer means that you have a FT offer with the bank, not definitely and specifically within your SA group. Yes, if your group likes you and you wanted to stay in your group, you’d definitely have a great shot at that, but for the sake of this article, we will assume that you prefer another group. In order to make this group switch into not just any group, but your group of choice, you should definitely use your time as a SA to not only build experience, but also to build a network or at least network with a few bankers in your top groups of choice. This will definitely help you to land in the group you prefer come the following summer, when you begin your FT analyst career.

It’s Not A Lifetime, But It Can Certainly Feel Like One

Moving past the SA scenario, the other case involves getting place in your less than ideal group as a FT analyst. While in this case you do not have the ability to work a summer and then move on as part of a structured SA program, you are definitely not screwed and doomed to this particular group or industry for all eternity (yes, the exaggeration is completely necessary). In this case you’ve got a few options as to re-branding yourself in a new group/industry, but before I go into those, we need to quickly discuss how to prepare yourself for those options.

Regardless of the group you are placed in, in order to highlight yourself in a proper fashion when preparing to make your move, you need to be a star in that group while you are there. Essentially, treat the group as if it were your top choice by pushing for the big projects, getting more work on your current projects, offering to help out on other assignments, doing additional research and generally showcasing yourself as a team player and strong analyst. Yes, it is often hard to motivate yourself for something your heart isn’t in, but remember, it’s still valuable experience and will you to build your candidacy when making a push, especially if pushing for another group within the bank (good news travels fast, but bad news, as in you’re lazy and useless, will travel faster). Additionally, make sure to meet your whole team – this again follows the being a good team member path – and you definitely want to meet analysts, associates and senior bankers of other groups – use deal team contacts and your analyst class as a means of networking both for immediate opportunities and opportunities going forward.

Once you’ve shown yourself as a strong analyst, you can definitely begin to think about your next move. One way you can always go about re-branding yourself is by pursuing an MBA. While this path will definitely require the most time in your current position (as you probably won’t get into a strong business school until you’ve completed the 2-3 year analyst program), it will also open many doors for you in terms of on-campus recruiting, alumni network, as well as provide you with a fresh start as an associate. Additionally, since you’ve demonstrated your ability as a strong analyst, you should be able to land some strong letters of recommendation and ideally have at least one or two interesting deals to discuss.

Since business school is obviously not everyone, or at least not for everyone at one specific time, you might want an additional option. Along the same lines, 2-3 years in your bottom group choice might very be a nightmare for you, regardless of how well you perform during that time. With that in mind, we move onto the most popular alternative –the opportunity to make the Group Switch. Essentially, making the group switch within your bank will require all of the above preparation and work, with an emphasis on, of course, networking. Remember, moving to a new group within your bank is always easier than getting into a new bank – so use that to your advantage. Once you’ve established some sort of a reputation within your bank, it will be easier and preferable for the new group to satisfy its hiring needs internally, rather than by looking outside to a completely new person. Also, generally speaking your current team won’t have much hard feelings, especially since you can talk to them about it when you know you have an opportunity to move into the new group rather than just springing this on them last minute – you can give them a heads up and put in the time to make a smooth transition for everyone involved, even if it requires a little extra work for a few weeks (it’s better than burning bridges).

Finally, you can make the push to move to a new bank through utilizing your network. Of course the key here will be in maintaining discretion in your networking efforts. You don’t want to shout from the roof tops that you are leaving bank X until you know you’ve got something definite (and even then, a little tact still goes a long way in terms of maintaining good relationships). This avenue is most appealing for someone who likes their group/industry, but doesn’t particularly care for their team’s deal flow, work/life balance or doesn’t really get along with a member(s) of their team. In this case, you would love to stay in your industry, just move elsewhere, where you find a better fit. The reason why I say this option is best is because 1) you want to stay in your industry/group, just move to another employer and 2) other banks will have a much easier time taking on an analyst from another bank if they want to stay in the same group, rather than start completely fresh. For example, I knew an analyst who wanted to make a move to another bank that had a stronger footprint in the M&A space after his first year. That analyst was highly ranked and working in leveraged finance space currently. When this person interviewed with 2 or 3 other potential employers (with a bit of network help), the other employers were interested in bringing him on, but not as an M&A analyst, but rather as a leveraged finance analyst. While it is definitely possible to make a fresh start, it is easier to move within your bank.

While two years can definitely feel like a lifetime in IB, remember that you are only starting your career. As an analyst, you definitely have avenues to make a fresh start in a different group or industry. However, just because you have opportunities to make a switch, it does not mean that you should spit all over your current opportunity and just expect something new to come along. Be smart, be tactful, work hard, and keep your eyes open – you’ll find a new opportunity or, at the end of the day, you might actually decide to stay in what was once your bottom group choice.

Comments go below and emails can, as always, be sent Here!

First, you do not want to mass email – essentially spam – every employee’s inbox because you found out about a potential opportunity. That is definitely not your best shot, although if you have any connections within the firm, you will definitely want to reach out to them. Contacting HR won’t help much either – they don’t hold the cards and will usually ignore you or send out a generic response.

Regarding cold calling, if the firm is big, then it won’t help. If the firm is a small shop, then it can definitely help…or hurt – depending on your pitch (if you can craft a solid brief introduction for yourself, at the very least you won’t make a bad impression).

Even though you come from a non-target, you best bet is to apply online and really look to find some sort of connection within the firm – someone to reach out to and check for a bit of advice (hoping for a resume push). Search your alumni database, LinkedIn, friends of friends, etc. Considering the opportunity is already open it’s definitely a little late in the game to be making the push, but it isn’t too late (See Here for more insight into the process).

Once you’ve applied, with or without contacts, you will want to follow up and continue to show your interest – don’t badger them, but definitely be persistent and show your enthusiasm.

I completely blew an interview several weeks ago – should I call them up or just forget it? If I call, do I call HR or a banker?

There are 2 sides to this issue. On one hand, you blew it – you know you blew it, they probably already forgot you blew it and don’t care…but if you remind them, they’ll know you blew it as well. On the other hand, you really have nothing to lose by calling since you know you blew it. I know that doesn’t help you much, so let’s move past the obvious.

While you definitely need to move on and seek out other opportunities, you should give a call back to your interviewer…or at least shoot an email (I’d lean more towards the email since the banker can just politely ignore you – you’ll get the hint…hopefully…and move on for good). I wouldn’t reach out to HR, unless you blew it before you even got to a banker. Rather, I would quickly reach out to your interviewer or contact within the bank. I am, however, assuming that while you blew the interview, you didn’t make an awful and poor-attitude impression (in other words, you didn’t really piss off the interviewer/contact).

Assuming you bumbled technicals or the like, you can definitely reach out to touch base (without harping on your past interview missteps). That said, if you did, however, piss off the interviewer and really step into “it,” you just want to leave that stone left unturned and hope they completely forget you. Calling/emailing at that point will most likely hurt you since you will only remind the person that you pissed him/her off – and, any attempts to undo that will come off more as annoying/desperate, than endearing. In that severe case, just let that pot cool off naturally and, if in the future, any opportunities arise, apply for them as they will have probably forgotten about you by then.

I have a summer internship with a well-respected boutique that has a bad reputation – am I screwed or can this be a good thing – what are your thoughts?

I haven’t worked for every bank, so off the cuff I can’t give you specific insight into a particular group, etc. That said, most firms have chatter – some good, some bad. At the end of the day, it is a summer internship – even if it is awful, you can weather the storm for a few months, earn some solid, resume-enhancing experience and then move on to another brand. If, however, it is good and you enjoy the group, you are in a strong boutique with good opportunity looking forward. Remember, negative experience and stories, regardless of how numerous, are specific to those individuals and are not necessarily going to reflect your experience. In short, it’s a summer analyst position with a good firm – make the most of it and evaluate your next options from there.

How do you go about networking with other bankers from another firm while you are a SA? Do you tell them which bank you are at right now?

Absolutely; there is nothing wrong with some networking during the internship since nothing is guaranteed and nothing is official until you’ve got the FT offer in your hand. While some people think that every banker you talk to is going to run back to your employer and tell on you, that is simply not the case. Networking is an essential part of the business and if done tactfully, a very beneficial part of it.

Keeping that in mind, you don’t want to confuse networking with free socializing – in other words, you don’t want to start badmouthing your current employer, the SA opportunity, your group, any specific bankers, etc – that is the garbage that can come back to bite you in the backside if for no other reason than it reflects poorly on your character. Remember, this is networking; you’re not hanging out with your buddies from college having a beer.

To the first part of your question, you want to reach out to your contacts – in other words, alumni, friends, past interviewers, etc from other banks to “catch up.” A quick update on what you’re doing, a quick question or two for them to keep the convo going (in the event of past interviewers and alumni – friends is an easy-enough category; the filler isn’t needed) is really all it takes – when they see that you are in banking it will definitely make you more appealing and provide conversation points going forward as you approach FT recruiting if you need it. At the worst, the banker will ignore you – simply move on and don’t give it a second thought. Not every contact is going to welcome you with open arms and that is ok. Finally, remember that as a SA you will be very busy just like your contacts are probably quite busy so don’t forget to be patient and considerate.

Should I take a boutique P/E internship or a BB PWM summer internship to prepare for SA opportunities next year? If I take the P/E internship, how should I talk about switching from to IB during interviews? Going from IB to P/E is normal, but what points can I bring up for the reverse?

First, go with the P/E internship for sure. In terms of IB internship appeal, the P/E opportunity is definitely a stronger experience – especially if you can find a way to earn some solid experience on any deals, etc during your internship.

Regarding making the switch to IBD from PE – give the usual answers for IBD – the broad skill set, transaction experience, etc. Then, instead of mentioning your interest in P/E going forward, point to your interest (whether true or not) in pursuing IB going forward or simply not knowing exactly what path you want to take after the analyst program. The skill set and opportunities you’ll build and earn as a BB IBD analyst will outweigh those of your boutique P/E shop without boxing you into one specific path several years down the line (this is not necessarily true 100% of the time by any means, but it’s what you can say).

Essentially, you just want to sell your interest in IB without selling a LT goal of P/E – leaving your options open will definitely help you here, especially if the sell side is of a strong interest to you in terms of client interaction and transaction experience (more points to use).

How long should you wait after you start a new job to take a few days off of work? Not for something serious like a death in the family but more for a vacation or a wedding.

It’s not so much how long you wait, but more of a timing issue. You can definitely take a day off after 2 months on the job without a problem or after 10 months on the job with a BIG problem – it really depends on what is going on with your time in terms of active deal flow, time sensitive projects, other junior team member vacation time, etc.

Generally speaking, you should wait until the holiday season to take off several days (assuming you start in July) in a row – this is just the typical path and when most bankers take off. In terms of 1 or 2 days, a long weekend or something like that, I would say that if it is less than a month to 2 months on the job, you should let your team know ahead of time – essentially after earning the position, but before you start (in terms of FT recruiting, not while you are interviewing, but once you know which group you are going into you can let your senior banker in the group know to give ample notice). Once you pass the month to 2-month mark, just play it by ear – if it is a wedding, it is when it is (assuming friend’s wedding, etc), if it is a vacation day, then talk to your supervisor about it and suggest a few possible days then go from there based on the situation and any fire drills – as always in this business flexibility is key.

If you get credit for it, you should probably submit it to the B school when applying. That said, if you don’t need it, and just want to take the class for fun, just drop it before receiving the final grade. Now, if you finish the course and earn an “A,” then there is no harm done and you can send the transcript over. If, however, you get a C, while it won’t kill you by any means since you said you did well during undergrad, it definitely won’t help you since it will be the most recent class you’ve taken. In short, you don’t want the most recent aspect of any part of your candidacy to be a glaring negative – even if it is a small part.

Essentially, if you are not going to get a great grade in the course and don’t need it, then either don’t report it, or, ideally, just drop it before the grade is official. That said, depending on the subject, you might just be able to learn it on your own and save the money and hassle of the online course.

I’ve been out of finance for a few years now doing a variety of things including running my own business. How do I break back in; do I really need an MBA?

I would agree that the MBA would be your best option. Is there any reason why you can’t go for the MBA next year – in other words, you said “until I can get an MBA” which sounds like you aren’t planning to apply yet?

Regardless of reason, if you aren’t planning to pursue an MBA yet, you will definitely have some difficulty and will definitely want to brush up on the technical concepts – finance and accounting and become much more comfortable with them. At this point, I wouldn’t be gunning towards 1 bank or another or 1 training program or another – instead, I would really focus on breaking back in, then if you want to advance or move around, either try internally or pursue an MBA at that point. You aren’t in the best position to be picky, so you should reach out to your network, headhunters, and go through the general application processes trying to get your foot back into the door. Learn or refresh the technicals on your own and try to be prepared to hit the ground running – this will also show your commitment to getting back in.

I want to do IB on the west coast, but live in NY – is this possible or not?

First, it depends on which groups you are targeting within IB – if technology or general M&A is strongly on your radar, then the west coast is definitely possible. Particularly Palo, San Fran and Menlo will definitely have heavy tech and solid M&A opps – especially for satellite hubs for BBs and many boutiques. Moving past that, you will need to go through the general recruiting channels – school recruiting, etc and push for west coast opps. For BBs, you’d make this selection during your sell day (for groups) and possibly just after your superdays (for location preferences, for some banks). For boutiques, you will need to search the pages – Craigslist, efinancialcareers, etc and look for west coast opps. Particularly if you are planning to move there anyway, you will probably have a decent shot and will show your commitment to the area and not just grasping at any IB job.

What “soft” qualities are bankers looking for when interviewing candidates?

They are looking for exactly what you’d expect them to look for: leadership (although you won’t be leading much), ability to work well with others/teamwork, ability to run with a project (drive), a positive attitude (since you will often be crapped on) and confidence (without arrogance – you want to be confident in yourself, but you don’t want to come off as thinking you are better than everyone else and everyone else is garbage).

A lot of it is common sense – IB wants smart people who they can tolerate at 3am…halfway through their gauntlet day (for example).

I’m currently a freshman at a strong west coast semi target with a 3.8 GPA. Should I transfer to something better (such as H/P/W/Chi/Col/Stern/Stan) if I want to break into IB or stay put?

A 3.8 is absolutely competitive, but whether you need to or should transfer is really subjective. If, for example, you are set on working NYC and getting into the best BB or elite boutiques, then transferring to H/W/P will definitely help you on your path. If, however, you are interested in staying in CA or just want to be in a good IBank or like the Tech space of IB, a strong semi on the west coast (such as Berkley) is definitely a great place to be.

Finally, if you are considering making a move, just apply – if you get in, then great, you’ve got a very nice decision on your hands – if not, no harm done at all. If you are going to apply, I would recommend H/W/P and if you want to work in NYC, Columbia. I would probably leave off the rest.

First thing is first; since you already landed the offer, the meeting will NOT be like your Superday Gauntlet and you will NOT be expected to rattle off Technical Question Answers like a finance textbook. This meeting, fortunately (I am assuming most of you find this to be a fortunate point), will be entirely about fit – in other words, whether you like the type of people in their team and whether they think you are a good fit for the group. Essentially, you can expect it to be pretty casual (in terms of conversation, not attire – unless you are specifically told NOT to wear a suit, definitely wear a suit), while touching on many of the common points such as background, what interests you about group X, your hobbies, school, clubs, sports and so forth – depending on the person with whom you meet. No, you probably won’t be grilled on failures, strengths, weaknesses, etc, but you will still want to be confident and vocal in your conversation without coming off as cocky – remember, you are not really trying to impress them as much as you are trying to show them that you are likeable and a good fit with the team.

Be prepared to sell yourself as hard working and both interesting (as a person) and interested (in the team), but don’t be a phony – be genuine and true to who you are – it’ll make a much better impression and give both of you the opportunity to know if there is a good match there. Remember, while the group is checking you out, in a sense, to learn whether you are a good fit for the team, you should be evaluating the group to find out if you feel you would fit in and, more importantly, enjoy your time there – remember, it is work, but it is also going to be a BIG part of your life for the next few years (or at least months for a SA – although, of course, this is a much bigger deal to FT than SA since SA can change groups, etc after their internship).

Regarding what types of questions to ask the bankers, I would go with questions pertaining to the person him/herself – such as his/her interests, what brought him/her to the field and group, his/her school, etc. From there, I’d move into the general group dynamic. In other words, ask about the groups common interests – are they social (in other words, do they do anything as a group – whether that be outings, evening drinks, etc), is the group more casual or professional on the floor (in terms of not only attire, but banter, different banker level interaction, etc). While this is definitely a field of interest to you, this is also the field in which you need to exercise the most tact when posing the questions. Specifically, you need to make sure not to ask questions with judgmental tones in your voice essentially leading the banker to believe you feeling one way or another as opposed to simply trying to learn about the team. From there, you can go into analyst responsibilities – will you get modeling exposure, construct pitch books, draft and revise offering materials, etc. Additionally, will you get exposure to senior bankers or is it pretty structured (a vertical structure) meaning analyst goes to associate, and associate goes to senior bankers or even VP and only the VP goes further up the chain. Lastly, you’ll want to touch on the group as a product of the bank. In other words, ask about deal flow, hot products or industries right now (depending on whether you are talking to an industry or product group), whether the group is keeping busy and looking to some live deals (essentially you are showing an interest in becoming a part of the team while in reality you are trying to gauge just what level of experience you can expect).

While there are definitely other questions to ask, this should provide a solid foundation and a more complete picture of the pre-sellday networking process as a whole. If used properly the pre-sellday networking channel can be extremely valuable in terms of landing in your target group. Just as with anything that can give you an advantage, however, it can also give you a disadvantage if used improperly. Remember about all else to put your best foot forward and be genuine in your conversations – this will not only impress the group, but also help you to learn whether you would honestly be happy in that particular group going forward.

Keep an eye out for a new product coming soon, the kickoff article of the Lighter Side…of banking…and Much More! As always, comments go below and emails can be sent Here.

I am very interested in seeing what all of you have to say about the site and where you think I can improve upon it, or simply add to it to enhance the overall experience for both the readers and, of course, myself. I know that there are always ways to improve or build upon everything, so this site should be no different.

Now before everyone pounces on this golden opportunity (not really – I’m always interested in receiving feedback and suggestions – just haven’t broadcasted it until now), let me start by announcing some changes and additions that I’m going to make or will be making in the very near future.

First and foremost, I want to announce something I am particularly excited about and have hinted at in a few of my most recent articles. Effective immediately, BankonBanking will be donating to charity 20% of the money raised through product sales – this includes my resume and cover letter service, my interview prep service, my interview prep guide and any other products that I release going forward (and there is a fresh product coming soon so stay tuned for that as well). Since this is a brand new feature of the site and something that I haven’t really explored in the past, I am starting with probably 3 or 4 charities to choose from (which is where all of you come in) and will donate in specific increments. By increments, I mean that I will donate, for example, $50 to charity X every time the amount of purchases comes to $250 in total (20% equaling $50 to charity) for that specific charity, charity X. This will keep the log cleaner and avoid my trying to donate $12 here, $8 there, $30 there, etc. What I need from all of you, is to email me your lists of charities that you are most interested in (whether it be 1 charity or 5) and I will select those with the greatest support as your choices (I’ve got a few in mind, but nothing is set in stone just yet). Going forward, more charities will be introduced, the percentage might go up, etc – but for now I’m really excited about this start and hope some of you will be as well.

With that announcement out of the way, one other new addition coming to BankonBanking.com will be the “Lighter Side” section. I’ve been toying with this idea for a while and have decided that it is time to launch. Essentially, this section will be filled with comical news pieces pertaining, in some way, to banking, funny stories (both from my past and from the pasts of all of you – anonymity is, of course, allowed), entertaining parodies and comics from other sites and such, and anything else that happens to seem interesting and/or funny. This will be a good way to connect both future and current bankers to the site and create a more experienced and informative experience for all.

Anyway, I know that this is a shorter article than usual, but I am treating it not as an opportunity to ramble, but as an invitation to share some new features of the site and to gather your thoughts, ideas and suggestions. So, send some mail and/or leave some comments below…I am all ears!

Haha – ironically, I have heard this question numerous times, so rather than answer each person individually, let me assure all of you that your performance on standardized tests does not correlate to how good or bad of a banker you will be. Just because many BBs ask for these scores does not mean that they mean anything in terms of your performance – they are more a means of weeding people out (than predicting incoming success) since many times, the smarter candidates do better on those standardized tests, which is how they got into the target schools, etc. All of that said, with a great GPA, you are probably smart enough to handle the job, and since you got an offer, the BB agrees that you are indeed smart enough and more than capable enough. Forget the SATs – you’ve got the offer – now it is about making the most of the opportunity.

I’m seeking some advice regarding the summer internship hunt. I recently started looking for opportunities, and so far, I’ve been applying through the usual avenues: predominantly my college career center. In your opinion, is Craigslist a legitimate internship source? Also, is Doostang worth the membership fee? Finally, does it matter if I secure a PE, VC, HF, or boutique ibank internship this summer (I’ll be a rising junior) if my goal is to secure an ibanking summer analyst position next summer? Would they all put me on more or less equal footing?

First, let me say that while there is a lot of junk on Craigslist, there is also some quality. My first internship (for example) in investment banking with a small boutique was posted on Craigslist – I sent my resume and cover letter, got the interview and landed the gig (not quite that easy, but you get the point). During that internship I worked on 2 live deals, performed a lot of modeling, drafted/revised many docs and pitch books, etc – all-in-all it was a great first step and definitely helped me to stand out above many other candidates going into FT recruiting.

That said, I do not know as much about Doostang – I know that some people use it, but I’m not sure if LinkedIn might not be as valuable (if not more so) nor whether Doostang is really worth what you will put into it – especially as a sophomore going for internships.

Regarding internship opps, as a soph going for summer internships, any of the 4 will certainly help you, but as with everything, there is still a hierarchy. Boutique IB and P/E would be top of the list, followed by VC and HF – depending on the type of VC and HF and the type of work you will be doing there (how relevant to IB – any modeling work, financial analysis, etc). All of this, however, assumes that the opportunities in question are on a level playing field – in other words, small boutique IB vs. small boutique VC – NOT small boutique IB vs top HF (yes, it sounds a bit absurd, but it’s an extreme example to make a point). If there is an internship with a solid MM company, or bigger name company, you should generally go with that over a no-name shop. The exception here is if the bigger shop is purely going to be admin work (or is BO) while the smaller shop is concrete IB/FO. As a soph, however, all of the 4 fields you listed will certainly help to enhance your resume and strengthen your candidacy as you go into junior year.

Is it wise to bring up MBA plans in an interview? And if so, how would you do it? I just don’t want the company to think I am planning to stick around for 5, 10, 20 years.

Short and sweet: during the interview leave the MBA go-getter attitude at home. At the end of the day, there is no upside to mentioning your interest in an MBA and a lot of downside. If you tell the firm of your intention, many firms will not even strongly consider you, since they don’t think you have an interest in growing with the firm – more that you are using it to kill some time and build a bit of experience before B school (this is especially true with smaller firms or firms in general that don’t have structured drop-off points such as BB analyst programs – where it’s 2 or 3 and then what’s next).

To address your issue, while some bosses might be upset if you leave after 2 or 3 years when they thought you would be around for more like 5, the fact is, people’s goals and their ambitions/passions all change and while you didn’t think an MBA was for you 2-3 years ago (whether true or not), now you feel it is the right move at this point. The fact is most bosses won’t be upset and as long as you’ve done good work, you should have built a solid relationship and one in which they will support you in your efforts as you’ve supported your team. If you go and break this news before they know you, before you’ve even got an offer, you’re essentially saying “if you want someone committed and in it for the long haul, at least at this point, look elsewhere.”

Don’t knock yourself out before you’re even in. In this case, I like either rejecting the notion of B school or saying that it is a possibility, but definitely more of a back-up plan – your ultimate goal is XXX (and of course align it to what you are interviewing for). If you have the GMAT on your resume, then you will want to go with the 2nd strategy and be definitive in your plans – don’t flip-flop and say that maybe B school, it all depends on how you like it, etc – say you want position X – period.

What are some typical volunteer-type things that people do in order to prepare their resumes for MBA application process?

It really depends on your interests, the amount of time you have, and whether you are willing to invest in an opportunity. For example, any number of mission trips or overseas trips would be great if you had an interest, a bit of capital, and, of course, the time. You can find some with Habitat for Humanity or a ton of opportunities in several fields on Idealist.org.

If you don’t have that level of interest or lack one of the resources necessary, move on to whatever interests you most. If you want to be a mentor, go with Big Bro/Big Sis, or some other avenue in a similar capacity. If you want to help students, then look into tutoring or after school assistance – there are numerous opportunities here. If you want to build something with your hands, you can always go with one of my favorites – Habitat for Humanity through one of its many affiliates across the country (or on a 1-week or 2-week mission trip overseas). There are administrative opportunities with United Way and others and a host of other opportunities across many different fields.

Honestly, find what you like the most and can give yourself to with the most ease and passion – that is where you will find the most support in your business applications and life in general. Remember, think of yourself as a complete person, don’t just think B school – the incidental result will be a much stronger point to sell your B school apps anyway.

Should I try to meet with bankers in each group before the sellday?

This is a question that I get pretty regularly, and let me provide a clear answer: definitely. Meeting with a banker or 2 in your group(s) of interest is a great way to get on their radar ahead of the sellday, when, essentially, everyone will be fighting to make an impression on their top choices. While you will definitely be meeting many new bankers during your sellday and, honestly, might not even see your contact within group A during the sellday (perhaps he/she is not a presenter), you should still try to meet with at least a banker or two in a group you are really interested in. In short, you’ve got 2 big reasons here even if you do not see your contact at the event: 1) it gives you a great opening topic to break into conversation with all of the bankers in the group and 2) shows the bankers or at least provides a great avenue for the group’s representative bankers to look into your fit and check with someone already on their team. Don’t underestimate the power of networking and for having an “in” within a group even if that person is not a sellday decision maker. Finally, if you have some sort of an alumni connection (or interview connection – they interviewed you during one of your previous rounds, for example), that is even more of a reason to jump on the opportunity and will provide for an even stronger contact (alumni has the common bond and the interviewer can definitely talk to your fit and intellectual aptitudes).

Should I try to meet with more than one senior banker or analyst? Which is preferable: senior bankers or analysts/associates?

Before we focus on who is the best person to meet with, focus on actually finding someone to network with. In other words, don’t overlook analysts because you only want to talk to senior bankers or vice versa – if you are pressed for contacts, take what you can get and utilize as best you can to both cultivate that relationship and leverage it into additional contacts. Again, generally speaking, alumni connections and past interviewers are best since you’ve already got the connection established and those contacts can often speak to your skill set, fit, etc best (or better than other contacts such as acquaintances of acquaintances, LinkedIn contacts, etc). Now, if you have access to senior bankers, especially VPs and Ds as they are often a little more accessible and open to junior bankers than MDs who often have more on their plates, you should absolutely seize that opportunity. If, however, you can’t get a hold of any senior bankers, make your way down to the associate and analyst level as they will still be able to help you more than you might think (if you make a good impression) and, at the end of the day, making a good impression on someone in the group is much better than not knowing anyone. Finally, if you have several senior and junior level contacts within the group of your choice: 1) consider yourself VERY lucky and in with the crowd as long as you play it cool and calm, and 2) when reaching out to your contacts, don’t flood everyone’s email – instead, reach out to your closest contact; a junior and a senior banker is acceptable in this case (but not multiple bankers of the same category) since they will provide you with different insight into the group, the work, the atmosphere, etc.

Should I try to meet with as many people as possible or will this annoy them?

As I started to go into in the previous response, do not try to meet with everyone in a group. Assuming you are trying to branch out and meet new people within the group, you should not try to meet and open contact with EVERYONE – frankly, you won’t gain more information and will become a bit of a nuisance since you will be asking each banker the same questions and getting, usually, similar answer most of those stock questions. Meeting with 1 or 2 people in the group (especially if they are in different categories – 1 senior and 1 junior banker) is a great way to make the connection and possibly meet other people – as one of these bankers might invite you to meet a few others knowing that you’ve got a sellday coming and already have an offer – without imposing on the team or becoming a nuisance.

Should I go through HR and ask for contact info or just contacts I’ve built over the last year or so?

Generally speaking (and generally is an understatement here), I would go with contacts – alumni, past interviewers, friends/acquaintances, and acquaintances of friends LONG before I try to go through HR. I would only use HR as a last resort as you will not find the reception, help and contacts in general nearly as pronounced or even available as when you have a connection established already. Go with your contacts – even if in another group, they might know bankers in a group you like and give you a name – the reception will be far more welcoming and engaging.

Should I call, email, call and email to get the bankers’ attention?

The easy response here is to say that you should go with the email. Email is more convenient for the banker and more understanding and courteous of their schedule. That said, let me take this a step further and give a full answer in that it really depends on the relationship that you have with the banker. If you talk on the phone regularly or occasionally to catch up and don’t find yourself exchanging emails with him/her nearly as often, then you should honestly just give him/her a call. If, however, email is your method of conversation, updates, inquiries, etc, then stick with what works. In either case, what you don’t want to do is start calling and emailing frantically (and it doesn’t take many messages to come off as frantic or at least obnoxious) as if it were a fire drill though – pick a method, go with it, and BE PATIENT. If you email and the banker expresses and interest in having a phone call or meeting in person, that’s great, but don’t email, wait an hour, then call, then wait 2 hours and email again, then 3 hours more and call again, etc – yes I’m exaggerating a bit, but stranger things have happened and similar things happen quite routinely – in short don’t be a pain in backside.

Should I ask them to meet for coffee, out to lunch, or go to their office so they can introduce me to other bankers? Also, should I set everything up or sit back?

This is another situation where it depends. If the banker asks you for your availability and what you prefer then be decisive (although still flexible) and make some suggestions. As a general starting position, I also suggest that you let them set it up. If they want to grab coffee, do that, meet in a conference room, do that, introduce you to their team, do that. Make it easy for them and be flexible – essentially putting the ball in their court makes it easy for them to fit it into their schedule (within reason of course). If you are out of town, be sure to give them some notice as to when you are coming in and let them run with the agenda/plan from there. As an additional note, don’t accept the first date and time they suggest even if it doesn’t work at all for you. If you’ve got your appointment with them in NYC at their office at 1:30pm, and already have an appointment that you cannot break or reschedule (such as a class final in a course you need an “A” in to pass and without passing will not graduate – an extreme example, I know) at 2:00pm 40 blocks away, don’t take that meeting time. In other words, give yourself time to meet and don’t be afraid to pass on one time if it REALLY doesn’t work for you so that you are more comfortable and not pressured to rush everything. The impression you leave will be much better if you are comfortable and relaxed – not stressing about a big final.

Should I outright say that their group is my absolute top choice – even if it isn’t?

Banking across the banks is a small world – banking within a bank is an even smaller one. While an incoming analyst or associate is not a HUGE topic of conversation among bankers, you never know what might come up ahead of, during or after the sellday and you don’t want their lasting impression of you to be a phony and a liar. In short, don’t lie, but at the same time, if you are meeting with someone in a particular group you definitely want to show strong interest and make them feel like they are at the top of your list – hell, no one likes to feel 2nd best, let alone 12th. Remember, the sellday will provide you more than enough opportunity to meet bankers in each group, get a feel for the team and the group as a product/industry – therefore, don’t meet just to meet – only meet bankers in a group ahead of the sellday if you have a real interest in the team.

That about covers it for this post – if there are any other sellday networking question questions or comments, feel free to post them below or send me an email HERE. The sellday is huge and your big chance to make the impression necessary to get into your group of choice – you definitely want to do what you can to enhance your chances and appeal.

Stay tuned for posts, a fresh product and an great NEW aspect of the site, specifically my products – I am really excited about the decision and I hope my readers and supporters will be as well.