Now that we’ve covered what exactly the application-less position is, let’s jump right into the best strategy for not only applying to the companies, but also how to find the shops and how to reach out to, ideally, the right bankers at the shop. This question comes up quite a lot from my readers, so I’m just going to jump in and tackle the issue at hand. No, it’s not just a matter of praying for the right opportunities, but if you follow these steps, you’ll be well on your way:

Where Are The Firms?

First, you need to actually find some boutiques/shops in your area, a big city you are close to, or where you are planning to be or can be over, for example, the summer (assuming you are looking for a summer internship). Once you know where you will be spending your summer (or other internship period), you need to perform a broad Google search to find boutiques and shops in the area that you’re interested in applying to and ideally interning with. To be blunt, this will be the vast majority of shops that you find through your search in your area since, at the end of the day, your best bet, as is often the case, is to cast a wide net. Beyond a Google search, you can search popular IB forums and ask friends, your school career center, etc.

Who Do I Reach Out To?

Now that you’ve built up a sizeable list of boutiques to contact, you need to spend some time on each of their websites and find out a few things. First, you need to know what the boutique focuses on – what industry, types of transactions, size and so forth – not necessarily to be used on this step, but during later steps you’ll definitely want to know about the company you are claiming to have an interest in. Beyond the basics, search through each of the websites for any career sections, employment sections, internship postings, etc. If you happen to find any positions, take the opportunity to submit an application that way – if not, it’s time to move on. Keep in mind that even if you find an opportunity this way, you can still pursue the following steps as a means of further getting your name in front of some of the bankers of the company – showing enthusiasm is a good thing as long as you don’t take it too far thus becoming a nuisance.

Since the article is about the application-less application, I’ll assume most of you have sailed right past the closing point from the previous paragraph and are ready to apply despite the lack of an online application or website career section. Assuming the opportunity is not posted online, you should look for the company directory or “team” profiles link on their website, which usually, at the least, shows names and often contact info for VP bankers and up – which is what you need when you are considering submitting a letter of inquiry to the firm.

Now that you’ve found the list of bankers at the firm, and, ideally, some contact info (or at least a contact standard for the firm so you can deduce the email address for a particular banker) for the bankers, you need to go through each of the bankers’ bios provided by the firm to learn of any common ground you might have with them. For example, did you attend or do you attend the same undergrad he/she attended, have you interned in a field they previously explored, have you interned or do you have an interest in the same industry they focus on, if there are any hobbies listed, do you have any common hobbies, are you both from the same hometown or have dwelled in a similar (and unique) place (meaning, if you both lived in NY, who cares, but if you both come from a small town in Tennessee, for example, that is a common point). Essentially, you should be looking for anything that is a mutual talking point to establish some sort of a connection in that initial email with the banker – something to hopefully get him at least marginally intrigued and interested in sending a reply to you.

Now that you’ve searched through the database, there are two scenarios: (1) you found at least 1 person that you have something in common with, or (2) no luck finding the “link” person. If you can find someone who has something in common with you, that person should be your first contact person. If there happens to be more than 1 person, then the most recent common point is the best to touch on – for example, if you both have the same alma mater and you are currently a junior, then that is a better common point than a common employer 2 years ago for you and 10 years ago for him/her. If, on the other hand, you find yourself a victim of scenario (2) and can’t find anyone with anything in common with you based on the bios (which is often the case), then, in a matter of speaking, you will have to pick out the friendliest looking face, haha (which I’ve also done) – essentially aim for someone in a junior-senior role, meaning a VP or early D, and, if possible, someone that has grown in banking (meaning rose from associate up the ranks), as they might be a bit more receptive as they too would have been in the recruiting scenario at that point. In either case, whether you have a person to reach out to with some common points or not, you will want to reach out to the person of your choosing through an inquiry email (a letter of inquiry in the body of an email) and attach your resume. Yes, in this case, you should attach your resume.

I Really Include My Resume? What About The Inquiry Letter?

Here’s the thing; although I don’t usually recommend attaching your resume to the first email for numerous reasons, in this case there is no disguising your intentions. Simply put, you want an internship with his/her firm and need to not only put your best foot forward through a strong letter of inquiry, but also deliver a complete representation of yourself through a neatly pressed resume. Without attaching your resume to the email, you are only sharing a small snippet of your candidacy with your potential employer and hoping he/she is interested enough to ask for more instead of including your resume and giving your potential employer a more thorough, if not complete, picture of your candidacy. In the case of cold-emailing and applying to these types of positions, you have less than a first impression, you have nothing more than a faceless first virtual-impression, which absolutely requires putting your best foot forward.

Moving into the core of the application-less application, the inquiry email, you will want to treat it just as you would a well-crafted cover letter for an advertised opportunity you are interested in, but instead of applying for a specific position, you are targeting the letter to the broader goal of working for the firm. Essentially, just as you would in a cover letter, you will highlight your interest in the firm and why you are interested in it (attributes based on your quick research on the website), your professional and/or academic highlights, any extras you’d like to include and, finally, a reaffirmation of your interest in working with the firm, a thanks and expressing an interest in speaking to discuss potential opportunities (internship, analyst, IB, etc).

What If The Banker Doesn’t Respond?

Now as fantastic as your letter of inquiry highlights your skills and sells your candidacy, you are obviously not always going to receive a response (positive or negative since whether good or bad, a response lets you know which direction to take next). If, or rather, when, you don’t get a response from the first person you reach out to at firm X, you shouldn’t give up just yet. After several days (preferably a week to 2 weeks), you can try reaching out to 1 more person at the firm. If the boutique is a bit larger, you should send the letter to someone in a different group; if it is a tiny shop, then just take a chance and email someone else on the team, but especially in the case of the small shop, you need to be sure to mention to the second person that you had already reached out to person X (the first person you reached out to) without success, but you understand how busy schedules can become.

The application-less application is absolutely the toughest application path to tackle with success, but it can absolutely be done. Send me an email if you have any other questions. If you need assistance on cold calls, networking calls, and so forth, be sure to consider an interview and networking prep session. As always, leave comments below.

It depends on a few things.

First, are you talking about a Master’s or an MBA (I’m ignoring law school, etc, since I am assuming you are considering something business and not law, teaching, etc). If you are talking about a finishing degree such as a Master’s then it is fine to pursue that right out of undergrad as both a means of further strengthening your knowledge in a particular field, and buying yourself an extra year of profession decision time. If, however, you are talking about an MBA, 1) you are not going to get into a top program straight out of undergrad (there are very few extraordinary exceptions to this) and 2) you will gain much more from an MBA with some solid, real world work experience as well as a plan/goals post MBA.

Next, it depends on what options you have upon graduation. If you can land yourself some interesting positions (whether in IB or something else), since many post U Grad positions are for 2-3 years and then they can be promoted or move on to something else (different career, employer, school, etc), you should strongly consider taking a chance and seeing if that position or at least field is right for you. Remember, a 2-year analyst program does not mean you have to stay put for 2 years. Often the best way to find out what you want to do and, just as importantly, what you don’t want to do, is by actually picking up the job and doing it.

If, however, you find yourself without some interesting/solid professional avenues next year, then pursuing a 1-year or so Master’s program might be a good way to both strengthen your candidacy and give you time to figure out a few more of your interests, without eliminating the MBA option later in case you ever decide to pursue it.

There are definitely other factors such as money, time, personal issues, etc, but in terms of broad opinions, this is a good start to give you at least some sort of thinking points. Again, in my opinion, if you’ve got a decent opportunity next year, I would take a chance and see if it’s for you – jump right in and see what works and what doesn’t – in other words, don’t put off entering the work world until that 1 magical opportunity comes, where the heavens open and the planets align – it might never come or you might pass that one up to even if it does.

I’m an undergrad student attending my first networking session – should I wear a suit with a tie? What should I talk about –should I be myself? Should I bring my business cards I am printing out?

Here is a quick summary:

Suit, yes – with tie; dress as if you were attending an interview – remember, in this business you are always being judged or at the very least could potentially find yourself being judged.

Business cards, no – leave them at home, don’t bring them, they’re not necessary. You should take THEIR business card and follow-up with them, but don’t bring your own. Additionally, don’t be lazy, follow up with them via email and use the email to remind them who you are, where you met and to ask a question, etc – essentially trying to build a bit of a relationship (see Here for more on networking).

Talking points – as you said, be yourself, but don’t get too personal, don’t be inappropriate, don’t chew anyone’s ear off, don’t get too casual and start rambling about your favorite song or bar, and try to listen AT LEAST as much as you speak. Try to learn to gauge the conversations; in other words, if the person talks about sports, keep up and chime in. If the person asks about your interests, fire away. But remember, there are a lot of people at the session or fair and save some stuff for that follow-up email. It’s better to move on too soon instead of waiting for an awkward pause/silence, other people to come rushing in, or rambling. Ask for the business card if you connect with anyone and follow up.

From what I can tell from students, etc, investment banking seems like it’s full of self-centered mean people who think they are above others. Are all IB firms like this or is it better at boutiques?

Haha, well put as far as stereotypes are concerned. While there are certainly many self-centered, arrogant people, with superiority complexes in banking, there are those same types of people in trading, consulting, P/E, HF, etc. That said, there are also decent and interesting people in IB who don’t feel they are vastly superior to everyone around them simply because they work in IB. As with everything in life, there will be some negatives and some bad apples that get the bulk of the attention (yes, there is a fair share in IB) and lead to the stereotypes. Just because you work there, you do not necessarily have to be arrogant, and you do not have to embrace arrogant people – you will probably be exposed to some arrogant people as well as humble people, along with a healthy mix between.

Regarding boutique vs. BB, the same applies – arrogant/humble, good/bad, obnoxious/fun, etc. With boutiques, since there are less people, there are often less avenues in terms of socializing outside of work (if you were interested in that). In either case, you want to make sure there is a good fit between the group and you during your interviews, after you’ve been given an offer by emailing/grabbing lunch, etc. While you are being judged by the interviewer, you should also be judging the interviewer as it pertains to fit. You will be spending a lot of time with these people and you should both want to make sure the fit is right.

Here’s my scenario: I am thinking about the 2 years in banking and then 2 years in P/E. Is it common for P/E associates to go to b-school before advancing? While I know an MBA is not explicitly needed to progress in the P/E industry, does it make it a lot less difficult to go through the b-school route? For those that are able to progress without going to b-school, is there anything special about those candidates?

To your question on whether you need to or should go to B school after the 2 and 2, it really depends on your particular scenario. Let me provide you with a few examples to illustrate some different scenarios.

1. Say you are working in a solid BB in a P/E-friendly field – specifically M&A, Leveraged Finance and then, to a slightly lesser degree, Financial Sponsors. In this case and with some hard work, you should be able to break into P/E after 1-2 years in IB. Keep in mind, however, that P/E shops range from small funds, to mid size and then up the chain to the multi-billion dollar mega funds. Now if you just want to work in P/E and don’t particularly need to work for a mega fund – in other words you’d be happy at a mega fund, but would also be happy in a smaller fund with a good environment/culture, then you shouldn’t have to attend B school to advance in P/E. Once you break in as an associate, you should be able to move up the chain from there. If something happens down the line, you can move to another shop or consider B school at that point.

2. Taking the same scenario as #1, but this time you are really aspiring towards ultimately ending up in a mega fund, while in this case you can still end up in P/E post IB, you will have a MUCH tougher time breaking into a top megafund (unless of course you are working in, for example, MS M&A and have made some connections). Now in this case, you should strongly consider B school since although it is not by any means a guarantee into P/E mega fund, attending a top B school (top 5-10, if not better, with good P/E representation) will definitely provide you with a network and employment opportunities with the mega funds. Additionally, since you will have both prior IB AND P/E experience, you will have an even better chance post B school (with some heavy networking as well).

3. Next, let’s say you end up outside of the P/E feeder groups as mentioned in #1. If you end up in an industry group, or another product, or even at a bank that isn’t a big P/E feeder, you will definitely have a tougher time breaking into P/E. In this case, you might consider B school as a means of breaking into P/E. From there, you should not have a problem advancing although you will have to be flexible in terms of P/E employer (the mega funds are always ultra-competitive).

Additionally, keep in mind that P/E shops aren’t the biggest pickers of B school talent and their process is often far less structured and defined than that of IB and consulting. Therefore, to break into P/E only to leave for another shop or advancement will be a bit on the risky side (although attending a strong B school with prior P/E experience will make you a stronger candidate, you will still have to defend your interest in P/E, since you chose to leave P/E, take a break, only to return to P/E).

Finally, regarding those candidates that break into P/E without B school after 1-2 years in IB, there is no magic formula here. You don’t need to be on the absolute biggest deals (although it helps) and you don’t need to be the greatest analyst in the history of the BB (although it would certainly help). That said, it is incredibly valuable to be in one of the groups that I mentioned above – those groups are the core feeder groups for P/E and being an analyst in one of those groups with a few deals under your belt will definitely provide you with some P/E opportunities. For the better funds, it will definitely help to network and work for a better BB (obviously better P/E will want the best IB since they can, in all honesty, demand it) and even attend a better U Grad. Regarding promotion, once you are in P/E, it will depend much more on need and performance than anything else. Therefore, unless you want to make a big jump or just a fresh start, you might not have to or want to go to B school.

Looking back on recruiting, what tips do you have for readers interested in pursuing a career in S&T?

S&T should probably be looked at as (1) S (sales) and (2) T (trading). For sales, it’s not so much hard technical knowledge that you need (just brush up a bit on whichever group/field you are interviewing with), as much as you really need sharp communication skills and be ready to sell yourself. For trading, on the other hand, mathematics and programming skills are going to be strong selling points. So majoring in one of those subjects (if not both), or taking elective courses in these subjects will probably help you. It also seems like technical schools (MIT, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) are more likely to be target schools for the trading side, at least for those who have just received their undergraduate degrees. Besides the math and programming skills, it will also definitely help to know trading strategies, formulas and general technical and industry knowledge as well.

There are obviously different roles within the T of S&T, so for some, the technical knowledge will be most important, for others, it will be all about the programming, modeling and so forth, and still, for others, it will be a mix of the two with strong math skills. Generally speaking, regardless of the position, strong math skills will definitely help.

Now for either area (sales or trading), make sure you are paying attention to the market – both the broader economy/stock market and whatever particular market you are interviewing with (for example, for a commodities role, it would be beneficial to know not just about the broader markets, but also how the commodities market has been fairing and where some of the popular commodities are trading – gold, oil and even a few others. In addition to knowing where the markets are, you’ll want to know where they were and where you think they’re heading.

What group were you placed in with your BB and was this your group of choice?

I was placed into a derivatives marketing group. In the end, this was really an investment banking product group, neither pure sales nor pure trading.

I was not asked for input on where I would like to be placed – in other words, there was no “sell day” for me to meet with and rank the different groups. Honestly, I would have preferred to be placed on a trading desk, in other words, a “pure T” desk.

What did an average day look like for you as an analyst? How many hours did you usually spend on the desk per week?

I’d usually get in at around 7a.m. The first things on my list would be to check my e-mail and run through the relevant news/read updates from our traders. After I settle in a bit, assuming there are no fire drills, I’d sit down with my director, who worked on the floor just a few desks away from me, to go over with what needed to be done for the day. Since we sat right next to each other, in the same row, we didn’t need to have an “official” meeting in an office/conference room. During the day I’d be answering phones, pricing different strategies for potential transactions, working on presentations (usually as part of a bigger pitch put on by one or another banking industry group whose client is interested in, for example, hedging strategies), and if there were no presentations that needed to be finished immediately, I might run some kind of analysis.

I would also coordinate with our legal, credit, and documentations teams. If a client has any payment or documentation issues, I would usually take care of those. As a quick side note, always be nice to your internal resources – you should try to be nice to everyone anyway, but these are the people who can make your job a lot easier or a lot more difficult.

Keep in mind that this is more of a “normal” day, if there is such a thing, when both my associate and director were on the desk as well. When my associate and director were out of town traveling, my days changed a bit and I would get the opportunity to have more in-depth conversations with clients – this was definitely an enjoyable aspect of my job.

In terms of hours, usually I worked 60-75 hours a week – usually 7-9ish on week days and a bit of weekend work, on average. There were days when I didn’t get out until midnight, and others when I cruised out by 6. During slower periods, I might work more like 55 hours per week, but it really depended on your boss, workflow and group dynamic. There were people within my division who had different directors and covered different industries who probably worked under 60 hours/week on regular basis – they probably worked closer to 50-55 hours/week. That always frustrated me a bit, but, again, in my case it was the luck of the draw and group need that pretty much decided where I went.

Which task was your favorite and which task was your least favorite? Why?

Favorite task: Probably executing trades – there was a certain rush to it – and, when I had the opportunity, speaking to clients about their options, etc.

Least favorite task: Pricing swaption collars. Clients never did these and there were days when I’d spending 30 or more minutes pricing various swaption collars since our trading software didn’t make these as simple to price as a regular interest rate collar.

What skill sets do you believe to be essential to succeeding in S&T?

Honestly, I only feel comfortable speaking to the position that I held, although this is probably applicable to pretty much any position in S&T. Of course, there are the basics, as with most finance/math/analytical-intensive positions including: attention to detail, analytically-inclined, grasping the technical concepts, being able to multi-task, etc. There are also, however, two other points that sometimes aren’t quite as obvious that I think are also worth mentioning.

A willingness to learn and an interest in learning definitely rank high up on the list. A lot of tasks in the S&T world are going to be group specific/industry specific/product specific/how your director wants it done. You will not know this stuff before you enter the group; you will learn it on the job. Be open and interested in learning. Do not ever think you are too good to learn how to do something or how something works and do not assume you already know something. I’ve had more than my fair share of mistakes pointed out to me and different, whether better or just preferred ways of tackling projects, presenting findings, etc.

The second point is that you should try to get along with your co-workers as best you can. This is probably obvious to bankers, but many people going for S&T, or at least the T, don’t think that it is necessary to really be personable and get along with all of your co-workers. Yes, it can suck, but it is a relationship business. If your bosses do not like you, you might not get the most interesting projects or gain as much insight into the business that you can gain while just talking on the desk. Also, and perhaps most importantly, they might think that the clients will share their perspective and not like you either. In this case, you won’t be speaking or working with any clients and if you are not working with clients you probably won’t be advancing in this career anytime in the near future.

For those interested in a math-intensive position, which group within S&T do you recommend they pursue?

I would definitely recommend that they stick to the trading side of the business, ideally in a position that is specifically looking for some with programming and modeling skills. Although the trading side is probably the ideal side to be on, if you are in a corporate marketing position on the sales side, you may be able to use your math skills too.

What drew you to S&T instead of, for example, IB?

One of the reasons that I switched from journalism to finance while I was in college was an interest in investing and trading. As a former athlete, I was enamored by the competitive nature and the way of measuring your results and your skills with trades. Just as I couldn’t find my satisfaction in journalism, I wouldn’t be able to find it in most other quantitative areas outside of trading either, such as banking or research.

Why did you decide to leave?

As I mentioned before, I never really wanted to work in the type of group I was in – I was far more interested in the prop/trading side of the business. I feel bad saying it since I liked the people I worked with, but it was just a bad fit. I guess that I could have asked to be moved to a trading desk, but at the end of the day, it wasn’t just the group; I wanted a better work/life balance. Now I am not even in the S&T world anymore, in fact, I am completely out of the finance world and while I am missing the paychecks at the moment, I am enjoying the opportunities I have to pursue all of my other interests. Although, with the limited funds I now have, I still maintain a small portfolio and trade.

Is there anything you miss about the business?

I miss some of my colleagues. As I mentioned before, my colleagues were never the problem. In fact, depending on your desk, it can almost begin to feel like a family. And just like in a big family, there will be some people you love, and some people that you do not particularly care for at any given time – and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. When you spend over half of your day, five or more days a week with one group of people, you develop a bit of an affinity for them. Having Bloomberg at my fingertips was nice as well. Oh… and, as I mentioned before, the money was nice too. I miss having money sometimes…ok…many times.

If you could do it all over again, what would you have changed – whether it be in terms of group selection, work, preparation, etc?

I wish I would’ve taken more math and computer programming classes when I was an undergrad. I also wish that I would’ve pushed harder for a trading position – been more upfront about my interests instead of doing the usual interviewee thing and saying “I’ll be happy wherever.” Sometimes, and this is more of a personal thing, not as much of a missed opportunity thing, I wish I enjoyed networking more – I kind of hate networking. I feel like networking is using people, even though it’s not, and even if it is, everyone does it. I still do network sometimes, but I hate it. Also, I do not think I am particularly good at it. Thankfully S&T isn’t as big of a networking game as banking seems to be – it still matters though and it would’ve been nice to be better at it or at least enjoy it more so that I might have a shot at becoming better at it.

Any other advice for those interested in S&T and for those just starting their S&T programs?

Work hard in undergrad and try to build the technical skill sets you’ll need – not necessarily through coursework, but do some research on your own. Have confidence in yourself, but not arrogance, during interviews. Be open to learning regardless of your position – being open-minded and eager will give you far more options. Continue learning off the job and make friends with both your group and colleagues in other groups, especially if you want to potentially change groups and/or employers. Lastly, for those that haven’t yet broken into S&T, reach out to alumni, network with professionals and get your name out there. Having support will always help you get the interviews.

I wouldn’t bring it up unless they specifically ask about your GPA and what happened. Otherwise, you are calling attention to something that doesn’t need any attention brought to it, and appearing as though you are making excuses/seeking validity for your sub par performance in the class. Simple put, the hard truth is that is no one forced you to take the class and you weren’t truly wronged; you just got overloaded and messed up – it happens, but you don’t want to call attention to it since, at the end of the day, banking is a job that regularly “overloads” its junior resources.

Help! I attend a semi-target (but my school is only a semi-target in its business school) and want to break into IB, but I don’t really want to major in finance. If I transfer to a target school that does not have a B school, will I still have to major in math or econ?

First, you could always double major in something business and something humanities at your semi-target. That said, since you might not want to or be able to double major while maintaining a high GPA – understandable – I’ll move on to your question. So, given that your school’s b school is the semi-target, you are definitely much better off in the b school – being that it is a strong business school, if you don’t want to take on a business major, it will be tough to compete with the b school students and you probably won’t get nearly as much recognition, if any, with on-campus recruiting and such (just as with students of NYU vs NYU Stern). Furthermore, you’d really have to prove your interest in IB considering you opted to stay away from the B school.

To your last issue, at another school that does not offer a b school, you would NOT need to major in econ or math. Majoring in econ or math helps, but it is not essential if you attend a school like princeton, harvard or yale. You will, however, still need to prove that you are analytically inclined and be able to defend your interest in IB – especially if you are pursuing a major that is not quantitatively and/or analytically demanding.

I am a math major in a strong semi-target school with a 3.9 GPA. I am a rising junior and want to how I can break into IB as a SA next summer.

You’ve definitely got a good GPA, have a quantitatively demanding major and attend a good school. You’re in pretty good shape on the surface, but I would recommend, first and foremost that you start networking ahead of the resume drops for your upcoming junior year. Having some support from alumni at the IBs will definitely help you to get your foot in the door (on that same note, you will also want to make sure that your resume in looking very good and error free).

Moving past networking, you will want to make sure your interview skills are good and that you are ready to tackle the fit questions FOR SURE. You will wan to know why IB, why that bank, why your school, why your major, how your major has prepared you for banking, leadership, strengths, weaknesses and all of the rest (check this out for more interview help). Additionally, as a math major, you will want to be prepared for brain teaser questions testing your reasoning and analytical problem solving skills – such as the how many bowling balls in the Chrysler building question.

Finally, although you are not a finance/accounting major, you should not think you are exempt from finance/accounting questions. No, you probably won’t be grilled on accretion/dilution or weighted average cost of capital, but you should know the basics – the 3 financial statements, what each tells and what each is composed of would definitely help – at the very least.

What is the order of importance: school brand vs. GPA vs. majors (whether single, double, etc)?

School brand is most important, followed by GPA. Last is your major (and your number of majors – see Here for help with majors). If you attend a target school, then school brand and GPA far outweigh chosen major. If you attend a non-target, choosing to double major in finance and accounting, for example, will definitely make your candidacy more appealing to IB than majoring in English. Therefore, if you attend a non-target, your GPA and major(s) become quite important as a means of separating yourself from the other non-target students and showing that you are interested in the field and that you will be capable of hitting the ground running in terms of technical knowledge (which will at the very least make you more appealing to those small boutique shops that don’t have structured training programs).

Would it be weird to contact people on LinkedIn who share group affiliation but are not alumni?

As long as there is some common ground/point to make contact, it is fine to reach out to the person. That said, alumni and friends of friends are your best bets on LinkedIn and reaching out to someone simply because they are a member of a common group (especially if the group has 250, 500+ people) will lead to far more dead ends than the previous 2 avenues.

That said, it is definitely an avenue that you can pursue, and as long as you don’t repeatedly message the person (in other words, messaging and messaging the person when he/she doesn’t respond), you should be fine.

How plausible is it for a History and Government major from a non-HYP ivy to get offers in IB? I just internally transferred from a business-type major at an ivy to a more liberal arts type program within the university and will probably double major in history and gov’t. Also, how much does a minor/relevant coursework matter?

A minor helps a bit and relevant coursework, especially in a non-finance/accounting major helps as well. That said, you are not being completely clear with your school description. I understand the need to keep your school confidential, but if you are talking about Stanford, then your major would be fine. If, however, you are talking about U Penn, or NYU, for example, you really want to be in the business school (assuming you are talking about a business school and not just an Econ major), as the business school is the target for IB.

If you are in the second category, you are definitely better off majoring in business (or doubling) for 2 reasons: 1) your school could very well be a target for the B school and not necessarily a strong target (or target at all) for the univ as a whole, and 2) if you mention that you previously majored in finance/accounting, the question will come up as to why you dropped the major even though you want to break into IB (and even if you don’t mention the dropped major, you will need a very good answer as to why you chose your major(s), yet want to apply them to IB).

Can you include live deals that you were working on in your resume even if they’re not yet closed?

If you are working on a live transaction you really want to tread softly in terms of detail. It is definitely fine to put down deals that are in process, just don’t state that the deal is closed, instead write something like “pending $XXX million transaction…” for example.

In terms of content – I would write what type of transaction, how much $ and industry – in terms of general industry vs. being a bit more specific in terms of type or niche or actual function/product within the industry, you want to use your best judgment. A very public deal in process should demand a bit more ambiguity than a small deal that hasn’t picked up any press/attention.

Do employers care about minors at all? For example, is there a difference between taking lots of finance classes and earning a minor or between being fluent in Spanish and getting a minor in Spanish?

For Spanish, it depends on the firms you are looking at. If you are interested in working with Spanish speaking firms, countries, or those firms that deal with a predominantly Spanish speaking clientele, then the Spanish fluency will definitely help. If not, then it really won’t matter.

Regarding the Finance/Accounting/Business minor, relevant coursework is more useful than stating a minor. While relevant coursework isn’t the most important factor by any means, having a few relevant courses can definitely help, especially with smaller shops. That said, a finance/accounting minor won’t hurt you by any means either, and if you have or are planning to take the coursework necessary anyway, then why not minor.

Between the 2 options, unless the very first scenario I described applies to you, I would go for the Finance minor/coursework over the Spanish (besides, if you are fluent in Spanish already, you can absolutely include it in your resume without a minor).

If you get credit for it, you should probably submit it to the B school when applying. That said, if you don’t need it, and just want to take the class for fun, just drop it before receiving the final grade. Now, if you finish the course and earn an “A,” then there is no harm done and you can send the transcript over. If, however, you get a C, while it won’t kill you by any means since you said you did well during undergrad, it definitely won’t help you since it will be the most recent class you’ve taken. In short, you don’t want the most recent aspect of any part of your candidacy to be a glaring negative – even if it is a small part.

Essentially, if you are not going to get a great grade in the course and don’t need it, then either don’t report it, or, ideally, just drop it before the grade is official. That said, depending on the subject, you might just be able to learn it on your own and save the money and hassle of the online course.

I’ve been out of finance for a few years now doing a variety of things including running my own business. How do I break back in; do I really need an MBA?

I would agree that the MBA would be your best option. Is there any reason why you can’t go for the MBA next year – in other words, you said “until I can get an MBA” which sounds like you aren’t planning to apply yet?

Regardless of reason, if you aren’t planning to pursue an MBA yet, you will definitely have some difficulty and will definitely want to brush up on the technical concepts – finance and accounting and become much more comfortable with them. At this point, I wouldn’t be gunning towards 1 bank or another or 1 training program or another – instead, I would really focus on breaking back in, then if you want to advance or move around, either try internally or pursue an MBA at that point. You aren’t in the best position to be picky, so you should reach out to your network, headhunters, and go through the general application processes trying to get your foot back into the door. Learn or refresh the technicals on your own and try to be prepared to hit the ground running – this will also show your commitment to getting back in.

I want to do IB on the west coast, but live in NY – is this possible or not?

First, it depends on which groups you are targeting within IB – if technology or general M&A is strongly on your radar, then the west coast is definitely possible. Particularly Palo, San Fran and Menlo will definitely have heavy tech and solid M&A opps – especially for satellite hubs for BBs and many boutiques. Moving past that, you will need to go through the general recruiting channels – school recruiting, etc and push for west coast opps. For BBs, you’d make this selection during your sell day (for groups) and possibly just after your superdays (for location preferences, for some banks). For boutiques, you will need to search the pages – Craigslist, efinancialcareers, etc and look for west coast opps. Particularly if you are planning to move there anyway, you will probably have a decent shot and will show your commitment to the area and not just grasping at any IB job.

What “soft” qualities are bankers looking for when interviewing candidates?

They are looking for exactly what you’d expect them to look for: leadership (although you won’t be leading much), ability to work well with others/teamwork, ability to run with a project (drive), a positive attitude (since you will often be crapped on) and confidence (without arrogance – you want to be confident in yourself, but you don’t want to come off as thinking you are better than everyone else and everyone else is garbage).

A lot of it is common sense – IB wants smart people who they can tolerate at 3am…halfway through their gauntlet day (for example).

I’m currently a freshman at a strong west coast semi target with a 3.8 GPA. Should I transfer to something better (such as H/P/W/Chi/Col/Stern/Stan) if I want to break into IB or stay put?

A 3.8 is absolutely competitive, but whether you need to or should transfer is really subjective. If, for example, you are set on working NYC and getting into the best BB or elite boutiques, then transferring to H/W/P will definitely help you on your path. If, however, you are interested in staying in CA or just want to be in a good IBank or like the Tech space of IB, a strong semi on the west coast (such as Berkley) is definitely a great place to be.

Finally, if you are considering making a move, just apply – if you get in, then great, you’ve got a very nice decision on your hands – if not, no harm done at all. If you are going to apply, I would recommend H/W/P and if you want to work in NYC, Columbia. I would probably leave off the rest.

First thing is first; since you already landed the offer, the meeting will NOT be like your Superday Gauntlet and you will NOT be expected to rattle off Technical Question Answers like a finance textbook. This meeting, fortunately (I am assuming most of you find this to be a fortunate point), will be entirely about fit – in other words, whether you like the type of people in their team and whether they think you are a good fit for the group. Essentially, you can expect it to be pretty casual (in terms of conversation, not attire – unless you are specifically told NOT to wear a suit, definitely wear a suit), while touching on many of the common points such as background, what interests you about group X, your hobbies, school, clubs, sports and so forth – depending on the person with whom you meet. No, you probably won’t be grilled on failures, strengths, weaknesses, etc, but you will still want to be confident and vocal in your conversation without coming off as cocky – remember, you are not really trying to impress them as much as you are trying to show them that you are likeable and a good fit with the team.

Be prepared to sell yourself as hard working and both interesting (as a person) and interested (in the team), but don’t be a phony – be genuine and true to who you are – it’ll make a much better impression and give both of you the opportunity to know if there is a good match there. Remember, while the group is checking you out, in a sense, to learn whether you are a good fit for the team, you should be evaluating the group to find out if you feel you would fit in and, more importantly, enjoy your time there – remember, it is work, but it is also going to be a BIG part of your life for the next few years (or at least months for a SA – although, of course, this is a much bigger deal to FT than SA since SA can change groups, etc after their internship).

Regarding what types of questions to ask the bankers, I would go with questions pertaining to the person him/herself – such as his/her interests, what brought him/her to the field and group, his/her school, etc. From there, I’d move into the general group dynamic. In other words, ask about the groups common interests – are they social (in other words, do they do anything as a group – whether that be outings, evening drinks, etc), is the group more casual or professional on the floor (in terms of not only attire, but banter, different banker level interaction, etc). While this is definitely a field of interest to you, this is also the field in which you need to exercise the most tact when posing the questions. Specifically, you need to make sure not to ask questions with judgmental tones in your voice essentially leading the banker to believe you feeling one way or another as opposed to simply trying to learn about the team. From there, you can go into analyst responsibilities – will you get modeling exposure, construct pitch books, draft and revise offering materials, etc. Additionally, will you get exposure to senior bankers or is it pretty structured (a vertical structure) meaning analyst goes to associate, and associate goes to senior bankers or even VP and only the VP goes further up the chain. Lastly, you’ll want to touch on the group as a product of the bank. In other words, ask about deal flow, hot products or industries right now (depending on whether you are talking to an industry or product group), whether the group is keeping busy and looking to some live deals (essentially you are showing an interest in becoming a part of the team while in reality you are trying to gauge just what level of experience you can expect).

While there are definitely other questions to ask, this should provide a solid foundation and a more complete picture of the pre-sellday networking process as a whole. If used properly the pre-sellday networking channel can be extremely valuable in terms of landing in your target group. Just as with anything that can give you an advantage, however, it can also give you a disadvantage if used improperly. Remember about all else to put your best foot forward and be genuine in your conversations – this will not only impress the group, but also help you to learn whether you would honestly be happy in that particular group going forward.

Keep an eye out for a new product coming soon, the kickoff article of the Lighter Side…of banking…and Much More! As always, comments go below and emails can be sent Here.

Haha – ironically, I have heard this question numerous times, so rather than answer each person individually, let me assure all of you that your performance on standardized tests does not correlate to how good or bad of a banker you will be. Just because many BBs ask for these scores does not mean that they mean anything in terms of your performance – they are more a means of weeding people out (than predicting incoming success) since many times, the smarter candidates do better on those standardized tests, which is how they got into the target schools, etc. All of that said, with a great GPA, you are probably smart enough to handle the job, and since you got an offer, the BB agrees that you are indeed smart enough and more than capable enough. Forget the SATs – you’ve got the offer – now it is about making the most of the opportunity.

I’m seeking some advice regarding the summer internship hunt. I recently started looking for opportunities, and so far, I’ve been applying through the usual avenues: predominantly my college career center. In your opinion, is Craigslist a legitimate internship source? Also, is Doostang worth the membership fee? Finally, does it matter if I secure a PE, VC, HF, or boutique ibank internship this summer (I’ll be a rising junior) if my goal is to secure an ibanking summer analyst position next summer? Would they all put me on more or less equal footing?

First, let me say that while there is a lot of junk on Craigslist, there is also some quality. My first internship (for example) in investment banking with a small boutique was posted on Craigslist – I sent my resume and cover letter, got the interview and landed the gig (not quite that easy, but you get the point). During that internship I worked on 2 live deals, performed a lot of modeling, drafted/revised many docs and pitch books, etc – all-in-all it was a great first step and definitely helped me to stand out above many other candidates going into FT recruiting.

That said, I do not know as much about Doostang – I know that some people use it, but I’m not sure if LinkedIn might not be as valuable (if not more so) nor whether Doostang is really worth what you will put into it – especially as a sophomore going for internships.

Regarding internship opps, as a soph going for summer internships, any of the 4 will certainly help you, but as with everything, there is still a hierarchy. Boutique IB and P/E would be top of the list, followed by VC and HF – depending on the type of VC and HF and the type of work you will be doing there (how relevant to IB – any modeling work, financial analysis, etc). All of this, however, assumes that the opportunities in question are on a level playing field – in other words, small boutique IB vs. small boutique VC – NOT small boutique IB vs top HF (yes, it sounds a bit absurd, but it’s an extreme example to make a point). If there is an internship with a solid MM company, or bigger name company, you should generally go with that over a no-name shop. The exception here is if the bigger shop is purely going to be admin work (or is BO) while the smaller shop is concrete IB/FO. As a soph, however, all of the 4 fields you listed will certainly help to enhance your resume and strengthen your candidacy as you go into junior year.

Is it wise to bring up MBA plans in an interview? And if so, how would you do it? I just don’t want the company to think I am planning to stick around for 5, 10, 20 years.

Short and sweet: during the interview leave the MBA go-getter attitude at home. At the end of the day, there is no upside to mentioning your interest in an MBA and a lot of downside. If you tell the firm of your intention, many firms will not even strongly consider you, since they don’t think you have an interest in growing with the firm – more that you are using it to kill some time and build a bit of experience before B school (this is especially true with smaller firms or firms in general that don’t have structured drop-off points such as BB analyst programs – where it’s 2 or 3 and then what’s next).

To address your issue, while some bosses might be upset if you leave after 2 or 3 years when they thought you would be around for more like 5, the fact is, people’s goals and their ambitions/passions all change and while you didn’t think an MBA was for you 2-3 years ago (whether true or not), now you feel it is the right move at this point. The fact is most bosses won’t be upset and as long as you’ve done good work, you should have built a solid relationship and one in which they will support you in your efforts as you’ve supported your team. If you go and break this news before they know you, before you’ve even got an offer, you’re essentially saying “if you want someone committed and in it for the long haul, at least at this point, look elsewhere.”

Don’t knock yourself out before you’re even in. In this case, I like either rejecting the notion of B school or saying that it is a possibility, but definitely more of a back-up plan – your ultimate goal is XXX (and of course align it to what you are interviewing for). If you have the GMAT on your resume, then you will want to go with the 2nd strategy and be definitive in your plans – don’t flip-flop and say that maybe B school, it all depends on how you like it, etc – say you want position X – period.

What are some typical volunteer-type things that people do in order to prepare their resumes for MBA application process?

It really depends on your interests, the amount of time you have, and whether you are willing to invest in an opportunity. For example, any number of mission trips or overseas trips would be great if you had an interest, a bit of capital, and, of course, the time. You can find some with Habitat for Humanity or a ton of opportunities in several fields on Idealist.org.

If you don’t have that level of interest or lack one of the resources necessary, move on to whatever interests you most. If you want to be a mentor, go with Big Bro/Big Sis, or some other avenue in a similar capacity. If you want to help students, then look into tutoring or after school assistance – there are numerous opportunities here. If you want to build something with your hands, you can always go with one of my favorites – Habitat for Humanity through one of its many affiliates across the country (or on a 1-week or 2-week mission trip overseas). There are administrative opportunities with United Way and others and a host of other opportunities across many different fields.

Honestly, find what you like the most and can give yourself to with the most ease and passion – that is where you will find the most support in your business applications and life in general. Remember, think of yourself as a complete person, don’t just think B school – the incidental result will be a much stronger point to sell your B school apps anyway.

Should I try to meet with bankers in each group before the sellday?

This is a question that I get pretty regularly, and let me provide a clear answer: definitely. Meeting with a banker or 2 in your group(s) of interest is a great way to get on their radar ahead of the sellday, when, essentially, everyone will be fighting to make an impression on their top choices. While you will definitely be meeting many new bankers during your sellday and, honestly, might not even see your contact within group A during the sellday (perhaps he/she is not a presenter), you should still try to meet with at least a banker or two in a group you are really interested in. In short, you’ve got 2 big reasons here even if you do not see your contact at the event: 1) it gives you a great opening topic to break into conversation with all of the bankers in the group and 2) shows the bankers or at least provides a great avenue for the group’s representative bankers to look into your fit and check with someone already on their team. Don’t underestimate the power of networking and for having an “in” within a group even if that person is not a sellday decision maker. Finally, if you have some sort of an alumni connection (or interview connection – they interviewed you during one of your previous rounds, for example), that is even more of a reason to jump on the opportunity and will provide for an even stronger contact (alumni has the common bond and the interviewer can definitely talk to your fit and intellectual aptitudes).

Should I try to meet with more than one senior banker or analyst? Which is preferable: senior bankers or analysts/associates?

Before we focus on who is the best person to meet with, focus on actually finding someone to network with. In other words, don’t overlook analysts because you only want to talk to senior bankers or vice versa – if you are pressed for contacts, take what you can get and utilize as best you can to both cultivate that relationship and leverage it into additional contacts. Again, generally speaking, alumni connections and past interviewers are best since you’ve already got the connection established and those contacts can often speak to your skill set, fit, etc best (or better than other contacts such as acquaintances of acquaintances, LinkedIn contacts, etc). Now, if you have access to senior bankers, especially VPs and Ds as they are often a little more accessible and open to junior bankers than MDs who often have more on their plates, you should absolutely seize that opportunity. If, however, you can’t get a hold of any senior bankers, make your way down to the associate and analyst level as they will still be able to help you more than you might think (if you make a good impression) and, at the end of the day, making a good impression on someone in the group is much better than not knowing anyone. Finally, if you have several senior and junior level contacts within the group of your choice: 1) consider yourself VERY lucky and in with the crowd as long as you play it cool and calm, and 2) when reaching out to your contacts, don’t flood everyone’s email – instead, reach out to your closest contact; a junior and a senior banker is acceptable in this case (but not multiple bankers of the same category) since they will provide you with different insight into the group, the work, the atmosphere, etc.

Should I try to meet with as many people as possible or will this annoy them?

As I started to go into in the previous response, do not try to meet with everyone in a group. Assuming you are trying to branch out and meet new people within the group, you should not try to meet and open contact with EVERYONE – frankly, you won’t gain more information and will become a bit of a nuisance since you will be asking each banker the same questions and getting, usually, similar answer most of those stock questions. Meeting with 1 or 2 people in the group (especially if they are in different categories – 1 senior and 1 junior banker) is a great way to make the connection and possibly meet other people – as one of these bankers might invite you to meet a few others knowing that you’ve got a sellday coming and already have an offer – without imposing on the team or becoming a nuisance.

Should I go through HR and ask for contact info or just contacts I’ve built over the last year or so?

Generally speaking (and generally is an understatement here), I would go with contacts – alumni, past interviewers, friends/acquaintances, and acquaintances of friends LONG before I try to go through HR. I would only use HR as a last resort as you will not find the reception, help and contacts in general nearly as pronounced or even available as when you have a connection established already. Go with your contacts – even if in another group, they might know bankers in a group you like and give you a name – the reception will be far more welcoming and engaging.

Should I call, email, call and email to get the bankers’ attention?

The easy response here is to say that you should go with the email. Email is more convenient for the banker and more understanding and courteous of their schedule. That said, let me take this a step further and give a full answer in that it really depends on the relationship that you have with the banker. If you talk on the phone regularly or occasionally to catch up and don’t find yourself exchanging emails with him/her nearly as often, then you should honestly just give him/her a call. If, however, email is your method of conversation, updates, inquiries, etc, then stick with what works. In either case, what you don’t want to do is start calling and emailing frantically (and it doesn’t take many messages to come off as frantic or at least obnoxious) as if it were a fire drill though – pick a method, go with it, and BE PATIENT. If you email and the banker expresses and interest in having a phone call or meeting in person, that’s great, but don’t email, wait an hour, then call, then wait 2 hours and email again, then 3 hours more and call again, etc – yes I’m exaggerating a bit, but stranger things have happened and similar things happen quite routinely – in short don’t be a pain in backside.

Should I ask them to meet for coffee, out to lunch, or go to their office so they can introduce me to other bankers? Also, should I set everything up or sit back?

This is another situation where it depends. If the banker asks you for your availability and what you prefer then be decisive (although still flexible) and make some suggestions. As a general starting position, I also suggest that you let them set it up. If they want to grab coffee, do that, meet in a conference room, do that, introduce you to their team, do that. Make it easy for them and be flexible – essentially putting the ball in their court makes it easy for them to fit it into their schedule (within reason of course). If you are out of town, be sure to give them some notice as to when you are coming in and let them run with the agenda/plan from there. As an additional note, don’t accept the first date and time they suggest even if it doesn’t work at all for you. If you’ve got your appointment with them in NYC at their office at 1:30pm, and already have an appointment that you cannot break or reschedule (such as a class final in a course you need an “A” in to pass and without passing will not graduate – an extreme example, I know) at 2:00pm 40 blocks away, don’t take that meeting time. In other words, give yourself time to meet and don’t be afraid to pass on one time if it REALLY doesn’t work for you so that you are more comfortable and not pressured to rush everything. The impression you leave will be much better if you are comfortable and relaxed – not stressing about a big final.

Should I outright say that their group is my absolute top choice – even if it isn’t?

Banking across the banks is a small world – banking within a bank is an even smaller one. While an incoming analyst or associate is not a HUGE topic of conversation among bankers, you never know what might come up ahead of, during or after the sellday and you don’t want their lasting impression of you to be a phony and a liar. In short, don’t lie, but at the same time, if you are meeting with someone in a particular group you definitely want to show strong interest and make them feel like they are at the top of your list – hell, no one likes to feel 2nd best, let alone 12th. Remember, the sellday will provide you more than enough opportunity to meet bankers in each group, get a feel for the team and the group as a product/industry – therefore, don’t meet just to meet – only meet bankers in a group ahead of the sellday if you have a real interest in the team.

That about covers it for this post – if there are any other sellday networking question questions or comments, feel free to post them below or send me an email HERE. The sellday is huge and your big chance to make the impression necessary to get into your group of choice – you definitely want to do what you can to enhance your chances and appeal.

Stay tuned for posts, a fresh product and an great NEW aspect of the site, specifically my products – I am really excited about the decision and I hope my readers and supporters will be as well.

Boutique IB/Advisory

Before anyone attacks me for listing IB as my top option when I just got finished bracing everyone for being prepared to not get into IB, I am not talking about BB, or even MM IB, I am talking about smaller and no-name investment banking and advisory shops (typically focusing on deals <$500mm, often less than $250mm). While these shops don’t carry the prestige or hallmark of far more reputable and larger shops, it is still investment banking and regardless of deal size, the work will be the same, and skill set you acquire can be very strong. These boutiques often allow their interns and junior analysts to play larger roles on transactions and delve into a lot of modeling and analysis considering the absence of experiences resources and necessity for every member of the team to be involved. As a result of this, you will often find yourself gaining solid resume-building/enhancing experience particularly with regards to modeling and active transaction involvement. Therefore, while your shop might not be impressive by name alone, the experience that you can gain (if you work for it, of course), can definitely help your resume to be impressive.

Additionally, unlike when you strictly focus on the top shops, you are now targeting a far wider array of employers and giving yourself many new avenues to pursue – the trick is in how you pursue them. Although there are many shops of this caliber out there, unlike the BB, top boutiques and MM shops, most of these firms won’t actively post for interns on college boards, or, for that matter, even actively search for interns in general. Therefore, you will need to do your own homework and actively pursue them. In other words, get online and start hunting down these shops. Go through their websites, find contact information, recent deals, conversation points and points of interest about the shop. Additionally, you will have to be ready to showcase your talents and your skill set – essentially sell yourself with each conversation. Don’t expect it to be easy and be prepared to be told “no” many times before finding a bit of interest. With internships especially, you will need to be persistent as interns are often seen as an extravagance, or, worse, as a burden – considering they often need to teach interns everything and just when they start to be useful, they go back to school and pursue a better shop with their new skill set and experience – show them that you won’t be a burden and that you are ready to hit the ground running and interested in contributing to the team, while learning about the business. Finally, be prepared to take a hit in salary as opposed to the prorated BB SA salaries you all probably know about – remember, it’s just a few months, but the payoff can be huge for the next few years – plus, some money and strong experience is better than no money or relevant experience if you end up finding nothing of quality.

Boutique P/E

So, you weren’t able to find a solid internship opportunity anywhere in IB – where to go now. While many people assume that finding something in P/E would be harder than landing anything in IB, that’s not always the case. You need to explore all of your options and I know of at least a few people that found P/E internships, but couldn’t land IB internships. It’s all about finding the opportunities, and since P/E is often the next step after IB, the skill set you will acquire as a P/E intern will definitely be applicable to IB – so don’t simply jump to back office opportunities just yet.

Consulting and Corporate Development

While IB and P/E go hand-in-hand, there are other opportunities that call on the same skill sets, are very competitive, and will definitely help to enhance your resume ahead of FT IB recruiting. Among these opportunities you will find two very solid avenues in consulting and corporate development. Both of these opportunities are seen as front office roles and are quite competitive in nature. Furthermore, the analytical aspects of the position and attention to detail required definitely stand out as interesting and relevant to investment bankers. With either of these positions, the biggest challenge here will be in convincing IB interviewers (next year, when applying for FT positions) that you are indeed interested in IB and not one of the other two fields (whichever field you land the internship in, that is). Essentially, you will be undoubtedly faced with the “why banking and not consulting/corp development” question during your interview and will be expected to have an answer that highlights your interest in banking without: 1) disparaging the previous position or 2) stating that you pretty much had no other options.

Sales and Trading

On a similar level to Consulting and Corporate Development (as it relates to the level of appeal the position has to bankers) is Sales and Trading. By sales and trading I am not referring to dime-a-dozen prop shops in NYC, but rather S&T internships with BBs and the like – often rotational programs and opportunities to work on S&T desks generally running some simple modeling and working on pitch books. Since S&T requires an analytical skill set, interest in the markets, attention to detail and is highly competitive in terms of earning an opportunity, S&T is often the internship chosen among students who do not land IB internships their junior year, and those who ultimately pursue IB FT the following year. Furthermore, although IB and S&T are quite different, many people often see them as quite similar (for a variety of reasons) and pursue S&T as an intern to test the waters, only to decide that IB is indeed the path for them (or at least that S&T is not the path for them).

The BIG issue here will be in convincing interviewers next year, when applying for FT IB, that you are interested in IB only, or at least much more so than S&T. Since S&T and IB go hand-in-hand (at least in terms of eager and aspiring student BB applications), it is essential that you are prepared to answer not only why IB, but also why not S&T – again, without attacking S&T in the process. If you can do this and do it well, S&T can definitely be a solid internship to keep you on the competitive footing for FT IB recruiting. That said, S&T is also very competitive, so don’t assume that you will be able to walk in an S&T interview and land the job much easier than an IB internship position – in short, always bring your “A” game.

Operations/Mid Office

While mid and back office often get the short end of the stuck and take a fair share of abuse, the opportunities can still be very solid and can definitely offer resume-building experience (especially when the alternative is no experience at all – being a waiter or salesperson at a shopping mall doesn’t count as relevant experience). Depending on whether you are working back office at a BB or at an independent corporation (a F500 company, for example), will determine what kind of experience you get. One of my first internships was a back office role with a F500 company and although I spent a lot of my time doing accounting work, checking budgets, etc, I also spent some time on more interesting projects including a few cannibalization studies and promotional event analyses – not earth-shattering by any means, but definitely looked decent on the resume, gave me an opportunity to work in both excel and powerpoint and was more interesting than most of my other work. In short – don’t assume that a BO position will be completely useless and that you will not learn anything or do anything even remotely interesting. There are definitely worse opportunities to take on than an operations/control position for a summer. Any internship is what you make of it, and just as with any other opportunity, work towards taking on as much responsibility and interesting projects as you can and try to meet as many people as possible – especially if working in a BB.

The one caveat, just as with S&T and consulting, is that you will need to prove that you are interested in operations (or at least fake it well). Although back office isn’t as competitive as front office, back office as a whole is known to have a bit of a chip on their shoulder when it comes to very talented young individuals who do have exposure to IB and S&T opportunities. They know that they are often the back-up and don’t like it. So while you might know that IB is for you, you definitely don’t want the interviewers to get that same impression. Learn about the position and sell your interest in it – again, an operations internship is definitely better than nothing.

Stay tuned for future posts on not breaking into IB, what an analyst really does and more! As always, comments go below and questions can be sent Here!

First, it depends on how long you were at the FoF internship – if you were only there for a few weeks or less, you can probably leave it off. If you left on poor terms and won’t expect a good recommendation – perhaps they feel you left them high an dry since you committed to stay until XXX and left early, then you should leave it off your resume as well (this is assuming you weren’t there for like 3-4+ months). If, however, you were there for at least 2+ months and there were no hard feelings when you left, you could probably put it down on your resume with bullet points encompassing whatever it is that you did while there. You don’t need to mention leaving or leaving early for another gig, etc – your reason for leaving doesn’t need to be on your resume, only your experiences and responsibilities.

Next, regarding your new internship, you will want to put the basics down – in other words, firm name, date you started, position and location. Regarding specific bullet points, you should not put down what you expect to do, you should only put down what you’ve done. Wait as long as possible to submit for the SA at Citi – until deadline, and by then, ideally, you’ve done at least a few things of interest that you can put on your resume – even if embellished a bit. When it comes to a standard resume drop, applying at the deadline as opposed to a week or so early shouldn’t make much of a difference.

Remember, it’s one thing to add a bit of flavor to your resume, it’s another thing to put down tasks that you haven’t performed and may not perform. If I were you, I would hold off until the deadline and then fill in the position with a few bullet points on what you’ve already done and really try to sell it. If you throw too much on there, it will be obvious that something is a bit off since you’ve only been there a week or a few weeks. If you get to the interview, you can absolutely update them on what you’ve done since the drop, which will only make selling your candidacy easier.

So I got a 1st round BB interview, but when I applied, I wrote down on my cover letter that I was competing in an academic competition. Between coursework and a job, however, my preparation took a back seat and I dropped out. Can this really hurt my interview chances or am I overreacting?

This really isn’t a big deal. Granted, it is an oversight and no longer true, but: 1) cover letters are read briefly and often as a “check-the-box”, 2) even if you are asked about it, just be honest and mention that between drop and now, your courses became too demanding, etc and you decided to withdraw rather than deliver something of sub par quality, and 3) while it is an interesting point, even if the reviewer read it and liked it, it isn’t something that is a banker-killer – it’s not something terribly relevant nor entirely necessary – more just a fun talking point, which, as the description implies, might be fun, but if not there, you are still worthy of that same interview and opportunity (assuming all else is true, of course).

What would be the BBs? Would UBS, fixed income be a good BB to have summer internship? Also, is S&T internship less prestigious etc than IBD? Or, are both S&T and IBD together get referred to as IBD or is it only IBD (M&A) that gets called IBD? Of the two which is preferable? Or is this question dumb in some way? Thanks.

As a rule of thumb there are no “dumb questions” – although I’ve seen some contenders. The “BBs” are essentially the bulge bracket banks – the big banks and players in the IB space – including: Goldman, MS, JPM, DB, Citi, CS, UBS, Wells/Wachovia, Barclays, and probably a few others I am forgetting (strictly talking BBs and not elite boutiques and such).

Getting beyond that, although UBS is a weaker name among the BBs right now (due more to internal issues than IB problems), it is still a strong name in the space and carries some weight – especially in terms of SA opportunities to prepare for a FT push. Fixed Income can refer to S&T and/or IB and/or Credit depending on the position within the space. I am assuming it is either S&T or IB – either way, it should be a solid opportunity.

Finally, to your last question, IB and S&T are both true front office roles and carry, more or less, equal prestige – but they are quite different from each other. It is not a matter of which is better or preferable, but more a matter of which you prefer – if you are interested in IB, then S&T won’t help as much – if, however, you are interested in S&T, then an S&T SA with UBS will absolutely be helpful.

IB refers to more than just M&A – although M&A is nowadays synonymous with IB in many circles. IB includes all industry groups (consumer and retail, technology, media, energy and power, etc) and all product groups (M&A, leveraged finance, high grade, etc) within the IB.

The bottom line is that it all depends on what you are most interested in. Additionally, even if you are interested in IB, accepting an SA position in S&T with UBS will still definitely help as they both carry high levels of prestige and often rely on similar skill sets (even though a SA position in IB would be preferable in this case). The biggest thing in that case will just be in defending your interest in IB, when interviewing for IB FT offers.

It’s getting late in the season and I’ve been rejected for a few SA opportunities. Over the years I’ve built an extensive list of contacts through alumni and linkedin. Should I just send out a mass email to all of them this week? It would definitely save time, but is it worth it?

I would definitely reach out to your contacts, but I would not go with a mass email as a mass email is very impersonal and makes your contacts feel like they are nothing more than resume droppers especially since many of them don’t know you very well if at all. Instead, I would send the emails out 1 at a time, and take your time. Don’t wait 3 months to do it, but it’s perfectly fine to tailor a few emails to your best or most engaged 10, 20, 50 contacts, and then see what types of response you get over the next week or so. Then send another batch if you need to dig deeper. You never want to call on everyone all at once if you only need a few at a time to get the ball rolling. Save your pull and keep them in reserve and interested for another day. For now, look to your most interested contacts and start there.

One of my interviewers (SA) was a VP in M&A. I received the offer, but I definitely want to get into his group. The sell day is later, but is there a way I can reach out to him to really indicate my interest and get the ball rolling? How should I go about saying that I am talking to other firms but would come to his firm if I got into his M&A group?

To the last part of your questions first, there really isn’t much of a way to get hired directly into a group during a standard SA (it is for the IB position and then the sell day follows where group selection is made) – only if you are a direct hire into the group will you have a guaranteed spot in the group. That said, there are ways to definitely increase your chances.

First, you should definitely reach out to the VP and ask him a few more questions, express your interest in the team, and ask him if it would be alright one day to even potentially come in and meet a few of the guys, etc – see how the team flows, works, etc – briefly of course, perhaps before an early lunch. All of this will show both your enthusiasm and interest in not just the opportunity, but also the group. Once you begin speaking with him a bit more and develop a bit of a better relationship, you can then talk to him about SA opps in his group, your interest in specifically working with his team, his thoughts and so forth.

From there, you might have an avenue to speak to HR to lock in a spot with the group, or potentially persuade the VP to push hard for you (which will definitely help your cause). The first step, above all else, is to work on developing the relationship with the banker and even some of his team – get the email going, ask some questions, express an interest, and then offer to meet for a drink (coffee) or a quick lunch – really try to learn about the group and fit into the team’s dynamic.

With a decent SAT score, should I take the GMAT and try to ace it as a freshman or sophomore in order to take the focus off of the SAT and if so, will it help me to land internships?

A high GMAT is definitely a positive mark on your resume, but as a freshman, soph, or even junior, the SAT is the standardized test of choice and merit, not the GMAT. Showing the GMAT on your resume and not your SAT score will also raise flags as to how poorly you must have done on your SAT given your choice to highlight the GMAT, a B school exam. Additionally, since the GMAT is only good for 5 years, if you decide to attend B school, it is highly likely that you will have to retake the exam, study all over again, etc. Finally, the GMAT is not going to really help since, as I previously mentioned, at your age, the SAT and GPA are the pivotal academic points of interest – as long as you have a solid SAT, just focus on maintaining or earning a high GPA, start networking, and keep your eyes open for opportunities. Save the GMAT for senior year, or later.

Stay tuned for future posts on what an analyst really does, staying ahead of potential layoffs and more!