Although along the same line as many of the GPA questions, I encounter a large amount of questions related to, most commonly, these 3 standardized tests: the SAT, GMAT and LSAT. For those of you that don’t know, the GMAT is the test individuals take when preparing for business school, the LSAT for law school and the SAT, of course, is for undergrads (nothing terribly earth-shattering here, I know). Definitions aside, the most common questions regarding these exams involve their impact on bankers, which scores are high enough and not, and when you should list one, the other, both, all 3, etc.

Let me start off with the LSAT and let me be the first to shout that achieving a 170+ on the LSAT is impressive and well-done without question. Now, let me also be the first to tell you that bankers don’t give a damn. Yes a 170+ is great, but the LSAT, for those of you that forgot what you read a few sentences ago, is for law school, not business school and certainly not undergrad (the 2 places where IB recruits). While the score clearly shows that at the very least you are a good test taker, it also shows that you have an interest in law school, or at least are not certain if you want to go to law school (which also probably would lead them to believe that you don’t know if IB is for you). As a general rule of thumb, I would not include the LSAT in your resume, since it will open up way too many questions without any benefit.

Now let’s move on to the GMAT. With the GMAT, there are two sides to the coin or two situations to consider before we even consider schools. The first situation involves a current business school student (or alum). In this case, the GMAT is perfectly acceptable to put on your resume (provided you’ve got a score good enough to include) and I would definitely advise you to do so.

The second situation is a little stickier in that you have not yet attended business school. In this scenario, you might have taken the GMAT as a backup, with the intention of going next year, or with the intention of going in 3 years. In any case, if that GMAT is on your resume, you will often be asked “well are you planning to go to business school soon” during your interview. Remember, if you are applying for jobs after (or during) your initial post-U grad position, many employers will be looking to bring you on for longer than a year or 2 – therefore, you probably don’t want to outright say that you are gunning for business school, even if you are. You will need to develop an answer that puts their fears to rest (even if valid) if you want to have a good shot at landing the position (check this and this out for more help with nailing the interview. That said, if your SAT score is not that great, and/or if your GMAT score is really pretty strong (and you’ve crafted a good answer to the aforementioned question), then you should really consider including your GMAT on your resume in the education section as it will definitely help you to check off that ever-looming standardized test question (SAT or GMAT), especially if you are a few years out of U grad and with a less than top notch SAT score.

Now that you should be able to figure out when to include your GMAT, you need to know whether you should include it. Although you can get into business school with a wide range of scores, and a 650 is a very respectable score, generally speaking, I would recommend that you only include your score if it is a 700 or better (for investment banking – for other fields, I think a 660-670+ would definitely suffice). Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen strong resumes with a 680 GMAT listed, but as a general rule of thumb, the 700 is that magic check-the-box number, where, if a recruiter sees that, they won’t question it – it’s a really good score, check, and move on. As a side note, if you’ve got a 690 GMAT and a weaker SAT, it might not be a bad idea to include the GMAT score since the 690 is more current and still a very good score.

Next, when listing your GMAT score, don’t break out any additional details outside of your AWA IF, and only if, it is a 5.5 or better (personally I don’t think anything lower than a 6 should be listed, but I’ve seen enough 5.5s to know that it isn’t a terribly big deal). By breaking out details I am referring to your individual verbal and math scores. Listing a 720 is good enough – you do not have to go into your 49 in math, since you will be only calling attention to your verbal score that is a bit weaker – instead, just give me the great combined score and if the interviewer has additional questions, let him/her ask them.

Finally, we come to the ever-popular SAT. Where including the GMAT can result in questions, NOT including the SAT can also bring up questions. For students in business school, outside of U grad for several years, or who have taken the GMAT (outside of U grad, that is) and have a strong GMAT score, not including the SAT is not a big deal – occasionally a recruiter will want to know, but it is so long ago that it isn’t going to be a big deal breaker either way, even if you don’t remember. For undergrads, however, the SAT is often a recruiter’s easiest way to weed out several candidates in one push. While many recruiters won’t care about your SAT, many will and not including will raise a flag of “well how bad did he/she do” even if you did not do badly at all and just forgot to include it. That said, including a score that isn’t great for a recruiter that isn’t really looking might provide him/her an easy way to drop a quick ding. Therefore, knowing whether to include your resume is important.

As a general of thumb, scores less than a combined 2100 (1400 or so for those that took the old exam) do not need to be highlighted/included in your resume. In general, these scores are considered the “start” of the highly competitive scores and at this point and above, it would be silly to not include your score, since it will be seen as a positive or at worst a neutral (rather than no score, which could, on occasion, be seen as an implication of a negative). Scores below this threshold do not need to be included in your resume, although borderline scores (mid 2000s or high 1300s) can be included provided that the weaker aspect is not in your math section. Once you dip into the low 2000s (1300s) and below, you are no longer really helping your candidacy much by including your score and could be hurting it. What I mean by hurting it is not that your score is necessarily bad, but it isn’t great either and by giving it up outside of the interview or when they specifically request it, you are giving away non-beneficial information without providing them with as much beneficial information (interview skills, etc) first. In short, a 2100+ can and should be kept on, and anything lower than the low 2000s can be cut from your resume to keep the focus on your, hopefully, strong GPA.

Stay tuned for my next post on what exactly constitutes relevant coursework and titling your summer analyst and FT banking positions, a fresh product on the way and much more! Comments go below and emails can be sent Here!

Haha – ironically, I have heard this question numerous times, so rather than answer each person individually, let me assure all of you that your performance on standardized tests does not correlate to how good or bad of a banker you will be. Just because many BBs ask for these scores does not mean that they mean anything in terms of your performance – they are more a means of weeding people out (than predicting incoming success) since many times, the smarter candidates do better on those standardized tests, which is how they got into the target schools, etc. All of that said, with a great GPA, you are probably smart enough to handle the job, and since you got an offer, the BB agrees that you are indeed smart enough and more than capable enough. Forget the SATs – you’ve got the offer – now it is about making the most of the opportunity.

I’m seeking some advice regarding the summer internship hunt. I recently started looking for opportunities, and so far, I’ve been applying through the usual avenues: predominantly my college career center. In your opinion, is Craigslist a legitimate internship source? Also, is Doostang worth the membership fee? Finally, does it matter if I secure a PE, VC, HF, or boutique ibank internship this summer (I’ll be a rising junior) if my goal is to secure an ibanking summer analyst position next summer? Would they all put me on more or less equal footing?

First, let me say that while there is a lot of junk on Craigslist, there is also some quality. My first internship (for example) in investment banking with a small boutique was posted on Craigslist – I sent my resume and cover letter, got the interview and landed the gig (not quite that easy, but you get the point). During that internship I worked on 2 live deals, performed a lot of modeling, drafted/revised many docs and pitch books, etc – all-in-all it was a great first step and definitely helped me to stand out above many other candidates going into FT recruiting.

That said, I do not know as much about Doostang – I know that some people use it, but I’m not sure if LinkedIn might not be as valuable (if not more so) nor whether Doostang is really worth what you will put into it – especially as a sophomore going for internships.

Regarding internship opps, as a soph going for summer internships, any of the 4 will certainly help you, but as with everything, there is still a hierarchy. Boutique IB and P/E would be top of the list, followed by VC and HF – depending on the type of VC and HF and the type of work you will be doing there (how relevant to IB – any modeling work, financial analysis, etc). All of this, however, assumes that the opportunities in question are on a level playing field – in other words, small boutique IB vs. small boutique VC – NOT small boutique IB vs top HF (yes, it sounds a bit absurd, but it’s an extreme example to make a point). If there is an internship with a solid MM company, or bigger name company, you should generally go with that over a no-name shop. The exception here is if the bigger shop is purely going to be admin work (or is BO) while the smaller shop is concrete IB/FO. As a soph, however, all of the 4 fields you listed will certainly help to enhance your resume and strengthen your candidacy as you go into junior year.

Is it wise to bring up MBA plans in an interview? And if so, how would you do it? I just don’t want the company to think I am planning to stick around for 5, 10, 20 years.

Short and sweet: during the interview leave the MBA go-getter attitude at home. At the end of the day, there is no upside to mentioning your interest in an MBA and a lot of downside. If you tell the firm of your intention, many firms will not even strongly consider you, since they don’t think you have an interest in growing with the firm – more that you are using it to kill some time and build a bit of experience before B school (this is especially true with smaller firms or firms in general that don’t have structured drop-off points such as BB analyst programs – where it’s 2 or 3 and then what’s next).

To address your issue, while some bosses might be upset if you leave after 2 or 3 years when they thought you would be around for more like 5, the fact is, people’s goals and their ambitions/passions all change and while you didn’t think an MBA was for you 2-3 years ago (whether true or not), now you feel it is the right move at this point. The fact is most bosses won’t be upset and as long as you’ve done good work, you should have built a solid relationship and one in which they will support you in your efforts as you’ve supported your team. If you go and break this news before they know you, before you’ve even got an offer, you’re essentially saying “if you want someone committed and in it for the long haul, at least at this point, look elsewhere.”

Don’t knock yourself out before you’re even in. In this case, I like either rejecting the notion of B school or saying that it is a possibility, but definitely more of a back-up plan – your ultimate goal is XXX (and of course align it to what you are interviewing for). If you have the GMAT on your resume, then you will want to go with the 2nd strategy and be definitive in your plans – don’t flip-flop and say that maybe B school, it all depends on how you like it, etc – say you want position X – period.

What are some typical volunteer-type things that people do in order to prepare their resumes for MBA application process?

It really depends on your interests, the amount of time you have, and whether you are willing to invest in an opportunity. For example, any number of mission trips or overseas trips would be great if you had an interest, a bit of capital, and, of course, the time. You can find some with Habitat for Humanity or a ton of opportunities in several fields on Idealist.org.

If you don’t have that level of interest or lack one of the resources necessary, move on to whatever interests you most. If you want to be a mentor, go with Big Bro/Big Sis, or some other avenue in a similar capacity. If you want to help students, then look into tutoring or after school assistance – there are numerous opportunities here. If you want to build something with your hands, you can always go with one of my favorites – Habitat for Humanity through one of its many affiliates across the country (or on a 1-week or 2-week mission trip overseas). There are administrative opportunities with United Way and others and a host of other opportunities across many different fields.

Honestly, find what you like the most and can give yourself to with the most ease and passion – that is where you will find the most support in your business applications and life in general. Remember, think of yourself as a complete person, don’t just think B school – the incidental result will be a much stronger point to sell your B school apps anyway.

First, it depends on how long you were at the FoF internship – if you were only there for a few weeks or less, you can probably leave it off. If you left on poor terms and won’t expect a good recommendation – perhaps they feel you left them high an dry since you committed to stay until XXX and left early, then you should leave it off your resume as well (this is assuming you weren’t there for like 3-4+ months). If, however, you were there for at least 2+ months and there were no hard feelings when you left, you could probably put it down on your resume with bullet points encompassing whatever it is that you did while there. You don’t need to mention leaving or leaving early for another gig, etc – your reason for leaving doesn’t need to be on your resume, only your experiences and responsibilities.

Next, regarding your new internship, you will want to put the basics down – in other words, firm name, date you started, position and location. Regarding specific bullet points, you should not put down what you expect to do, you should only put down what you’ve done. Wait as long as possible to submit for the SA at Citi – until deadline, and by then, ideally, you’ve done at least a few things of interest that you can put on your resume – even if embellished a bit. When it comes to a standard resume drop, applying at the deadline as opposed to a week or so early shouldn’t make much of a difference.

Remember, it’s one thing to add a bit of flavor to your resume, it’s another thing to put down tasks that you haven’t performed and may not perform. If I were you, I would hold off until the deadline and then fill in the position with a few bullet points on what you’ve already done and really try to sell it. If you throw too much on there, it will be obvious that something is a bit off since you’ve only been there a week or a few weeks. If you get to the interview, you can absolutely update them on what you’ve done since the drop, which will only make selling your candidacy easier.

So I got a 1st round BB interview, but when I applied, I wrote down on my cover letter that I was competing in an academic competition. Between coursework and a job, however, my preparation took a back seat and I dropped out. Can this really hurt my interview chances or am I overreacting?

This really isn’t a big deal. Granted, it is an oversight and no longer true, but: 1) cover letters are read briefly and often as a “check-the-box”, 2) even if you are asked about it, just be honest and mention that between drop and now, your courses became too demanding, etc and you decided to withdraw rather than deliver something of sub par quality, and 3) while it is an interesting point, even if the reviewer read it and liked it, it isn’t something that is a banker-killer – it’s not something terribly relevant nor entirely necessary – more just a fun talking point, which, as the description implies, might be fun, but if not there, you are still worthy of that same interview and opportunity (assuming all else is true, of course).

What would be the BBs? Would UBS, fixed income be a good BB to have summer internship? Also, is S&T internship less prestigious etc than IBD? Or, are both S&T and IBD together get referred to as IBD or is it only IBD (M&A) that gets called IBD? Of the two which is preferable? Or is this question dumb in some way? Thanks.

As a rule of thumb there are no “dumb questions” – although I’ve seen some contenders. The “BBs” are essentially the bulge bracket banks – the big banks and players in the IB space – including: Goldman, MS, JPM, DB, Citi, CS, UBS, Wells/Wachovia, Barclays, and probably a few others I am forgetting (strictly talking BBs and not elite boutiques and such).

Getting beyond that, although UBS is a weaker name among the BBs right now (due more to internal issues than IB problems), it is still a strong name in the space and carries some weight – especially in terms of SA opportunities to prepare for a FT push. Fixed Income can refer to S&T and/or IB and/or Credit depending on the position within the space. I am assuming it is either S&T or IB – either way, it should be a solid opportunity.

Finally, to your last question, IB and S&T are both true front office roles and carry, more or less, equal prestige – but they are quite different from each other. It is not a matter of which is better or preferable, but more a matter of which you prefer – if you are interested in IB, then S&T won’t help as much – if, however, you are interested in S&T, then an S&T SA with UBS will absolutely be helpful.

IB refers to more than just M&A – although M&A is nowadays synonymous with IB in many circles. IB includes all industry groups (consumer and retail, technology, media, energy and power, etc) and all product groups (M&A, leveraged finance, high grade, etc) within the IB.

The bottom line is that it all depends on what you are most interested in. Additionally, even if you are interested in IB, accepting an SA position in S&T with UBS will still definitely help as they both carry high levels of prestige and often rely on similar skill sets (even though a SA position in IB would be preferable in this case). The biggest thing in that case will just be in defending your interest in IB, when interviewing for IB FT offers.

It’s getting late in the season and I’ve been rejected for a few SA opportunities. Over the years I’ve built an extensive list of contacts through alumni and linkedin. Should I just send out a mass email to all of them this week? It would definitely save time, but is it worth it?

I would definitely reach out to your contacts, but I would not go with a mass email as a mass email is very impersonal and makes your contacts feel like they are nothing more than resume droppers especially since many of them don’t know you very well if at all. Instead, I would send the emails out 1 at a time, and take your time. Don’t wait 3 months to do it, but it’s perfectly fine to tailor a few emails to your best or most engaged 10, 20, 50 contacts, and then see what types of response you get over the next week or so. Then send another batch if you need to dig deeper. You never want to call on everyone all at once if you only need a few at a time to get the ball rolling. Save your pull and keep them in reserve and interested for another day. For now, look to your most interested contacts and start there.

One of my interviewers (SA) was a VP in M&A. I received the offer, but I definitely want to get into his group. The sell day is later, but is there a way I can reach out to him to really indicate my interest and get the ball rolling? How should I go about saying that I am talking to other firms but would come to his firm if I got into his M&A group?

To the last part of your questions first, there really isn’t much of a way to get hired directly into a group during a standard SA (it is for the IB position and then the sell day follows where group selection is made) – only if you are a direct hire into the group will you have a guaranteed spot in the group. That said, there are ways to definitely increase your chances.

First, you should definitely reach out to the VP and ask him a few more questions, express your interest in the team, and ask him if it would be alright one day to even potentially come in and meet a few of the guys, etc – see how the team flows, works, etc – briefly of course, perhaps before an early lunch. All of this will show both your enthusiasm and interest in not just the opportunity, but also the group. Once you begin speaking with him a bit more and develop a bit of a better relationship, you can then talk to him about SA opps in his group, your interest in specifically working with his team, his thoughts and so forth.

From there, you might have an avenue to speak to HR to lock in a spot with the group, or potentially persuade the VP to push hard for you (which will definitely help your cause). The first step, above all else, is to work on developing the relationship with the banker and even some of his team – get the email going, ask some questions, express an interest, and then offer to meet for a drink (coffee) or a quick lunch – really try to learn about the group and fit into the team’s dynamic.

With a decent SAT score, should I take the GMAT and try to ace it as a freshman or sophomore in order to take the focus off of the SAT and if so, will it help me to land internships?

A high GMAT is definitely a positive mark on your resume, but as a freshman, soph, or even junior, the SAT is the standardized test of choice and merit, not the GMAT. Showing the GMAT on your resume and not your SAT score will also raise flags as to how poorly you must have done on your SAT given your choice to highlight the GMAT, a B school exam. Additionally, since the GMAT is only good for 5 years, if you decide to attend B school, it is highly likely that you will have to retake the exam, study all over again, etc. Finally, the GMAT is not going to really help since, as I previously mentioned, at your age, the SAT and GPA are the pivotal academic points of interest – as long as you have a solid SAT, just focus on maintaining or earning a high GPA, start networking, and keep your eyes open for opportunities. Save the GMAT for senior year, or later.

Stay tuned for future posts on what an analyst really does, staying ahead of potential layoffs and more!

The modeling experience is definitely a sizable part of the attraction to those groups exhibited by P/E firms, and even with slower deal flow, there will still be a good amount of modeling, or at least more so than in most industry groups (outside of those that do all of their own modeling). That said, it isn’t just about the modeling, it is also about the contacts you will make and the perceived value of the group as a skill set in general. P/E shops see Lev Fin and M&A above all else as their feeder groups since that is how they view their job. Sponsors and the industry group that they serve follow, since those groups are still in line with their function/industry beyond just being P/E (for example, a renewable energy focused P/E shop would look to E&P or Project Finance).

While deal flow has definitely slowed down, it has also slowed down for the P/E shops – as Lev Fin comes back, so too will P/E shops, and, possibly, so too will hiring, if this all unfolds accordingly. If you are interested in breaking into P/E – look to M&A, then Lev Fin (although depending on the bank’s rep for the groups, they may be reversed), then Sponsors and then coverage.

As a recent Business school graduate, can/should I include my SAT score on my resume?

I wouldn’t include your SAT unless 1) you couple it on a line with your U Grad GPA and 2) have your GMAT listed with your B school. If you have your SAT listed and not your GMAT score, it will look a bit funny – sort of like you are relying on the distant past as a means of remedying your poor performance in the present.

Technically, if you have your GMAT on there, and it is strong, you don’t need your SAT – if, however, you just want to include it to avoid any potential questions (though I don’t see many arising), and you have a strong SAT (if it’s not strong, then obviously leave it out) feel free to include it as long as you stick with the 2 above conditions.

I’ve been placed on hold/on a waitlist for an IB opp, what should I do?

On hold is better than a ding, but you also don’t know how many people are “on hold.” For now, I would focus on finding other opportunities, BB, MM, boutique, and let the chips fall where they may regarding the “on hold” bank. If, however, you get an offer from another bank of the same caliber, or even a strong bank in a slightly lower tier while still “on hold”, you can absolutely contact the bank that put you “on hold” and let them know about your exploding offer – they will in that case either ding you, or make you an offer – either way the wait will be over and you will have gotten your verdict.

Do you know if banks will take back their offer if they are unsatisfied with your transcript, because you have taken too many courses P/NP thereby manipulating your GPA?

I think you are pretty safe. As long as your GPA is in the ballpark of what you claimed it was when you applied, you should be fine. It might look a bit funny to have a number of P/NPs in your transcript, but, honestly, they don’t give a crap. As long as your GPA is where it should be and you are graduating when you are supposed to be (based on what you’ve told them), you shouldn’t have a problem with retaining your offer (whether SA or FT). Banks will verify the transcript, but not scrutinize it – more as a means of checking what I previously mentioned and, honestly, dotting the “i”s and crossing the “t”s.

I was wondering if you offer any review services pro bono, for a discounted rate, etc.

Here’s the thing; first, I believe that my revision fees are fair and if I discounted someone or gave a free full revision to someone, I’d be expected to do the same for virtually everyone. Second, I always offer high level resume reviews (which often turn into more than “high level”) and I am always available to take a look at any of your resumes and give you some general feedback – you are welcome to send it over. I honestly enjoy working with so many of you on improving your resumes, and helping you all to land interviews – unfortunately, the most I can offer on a “free basis” is the high level reviews – whether through email, WSO, or private message.

Do I need my MBA to succeed in banking?

This is a question that I receive way too often (nothing wrong with questions, just that I hope this response helps to set the record straight). When it comes right down to it, you do not need an MBA to succeed in banking, to earn a promotion to associate, to VP, D, etc – you can do all of this with nothing more than your Bachelors. That said, the promotion to associate, and then subsequent promotions, are not automatic by any means and will require hard work, good connections, intellect, and, of course, a bit of luck. It is definitely possible to run the ladder without a finishing degree, but for many, the security or, rather, opportunity that an MBA offers is worth the break in employment. Additionally, if you are not one of the analysts who believe an associate promotion is your destiny (or implied – as in you are amazing and it is all but a given that you will earn one), the MBA is a nice back-up plan, or even go-to plan – then again, P/E, boutiques, buy-side are all good back-up plans as well. When it comes right down to it, an MBA is definitely helpful, but strictly in terms of investment banking necessities, it is not one.

Stay tuned for more articles on Missing the 3rd year offer, what a banker really does – part 2, and much more! Comments go below, and emails, as always, can be sent Here!